Men’s Journal’s Everyday Warrior Podcast With Mike Sarraille is a podcast that inspires individuals to live more fulfilling lives by having conversations with disrupters and high performers from all walks of life. In episode 58, Sarraille spoke to Harry Arnett, entrepreneur and CEO of Municipal Sport Utility Gear.
Inspired by his interest in brand creation and the intersection of product, culture, sports, and media, Harry launched Municipal in 2020 alongside friends and business partners, Mark Wahlberg and Stephen Levinson. The brand aims to revolutionize the sports apparel aesthetic with a line of superior-quality garments designed with comfort, quality, and versatility in mind. Beyond the product, Municipal seeks to reach its consumers in a unique way that fundamentally changes the way they want to present themselves and how they want to consume goods.
In this episode, Arnett discusses what it takes to overcome obstacles and be successful.
Listen to the full episode above (scroll down for the transcript) and see more from this series below.
This interview has not been edited for length or clarity.
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Michael Sarraille 00:11
Welcome to the Men's Journal Everyday Warrior Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Sarraille. Humbled to have Harry Arnett on. You may have recognized Harry from Wall Street, where it depicted the launch of Municipal, which he is the co-founder and CEO, paired with Mark Wahlberg and Steven Levinson. But you guys launched right during the COVID pandemic, right? Right in the middle of the damn thing.
Harry Arnett 00:46
As a matter of fact, we, when everything shut down in America, Mike, which was in March of 2020, we were about 60 days away from launching the business. So putting, you know, having our products on on available for sale are a revenue generating moment that every every startup is looking for that moment, when you are going to be starting revenue. Everything started shutting down in the middle of March, we lost all of our funding abruptly. So not even Hey, you got a month to figure it out. We had three days before we had to make payroll. And
Michael Sarraille 01:25
so everything shut down. And we were you mentioned Wall Street. If you watch season one, nothing like starting a business going through all that and getting the entire world to be able to see you standing on the edge of the cliff looking this
Harry Arnett 01:41
week. Wait a second. So Mike, my wife and I binged on it when he came out, and we freaking loved it. But remind me it just hit me, as you're saying. So in my correction, remembering that, because when the COVID hit, one of your major investors pulled out right, though, okay, yes, the pulled out abruptly, because they were the only startup that they had in their portfolio, which was, you know, nice that they, they invested in us. And they had a long history with Mark a lot of success with Mark. And with a lot of the businesses that he had from a 45 gems to Wahlburgers, to other things. And we were the only startup so we were fortunate that that they funded us from day one, to get municipal off the ground, because it really it fit into their portfolio, they loved the they loved the positioning they loved. They loved it, just everything about the business. Nobody could have foreseen the pandemic, of course, and when and when the pandemic hit the US and things started to shut down. So quickly, I mean, that they they had to really focus on their ongoing businesses. So they they had to pull pull the funding and the the mechanics of that were we were getting funded in tranches, like most every startup does, if we hit certain, certain thresholds, Mike, we would get our, you know, we get our funding we revisit, we were four days away from the next funding tranche, when they pulled out. So we had four days to figure out how, how we were going to make payroll, how we're going to pay our bills. And, you know, we had 13 employees that had left the comforts of security at bigger places to come join this wild ride. And we had to we had to figure all that out. And it really was like living in a simulation.
Michael Sarraille 03:52
Yeah, yes,
Harry Arnett 03:53
there are a lot of times I woke up Mike. And it was like, Is this really happening to me like how, how this happened, and you don't, you don't have the luxury of just being able to stay in bed and pull your pull your pull the blankets up over your head. So you realize that you really have to, you have I guess you can and then everything will blow up. But it really was, in some ways, everyone was healthy, which was great. Like we didn't we weren't in an industry where, where the, you know, real sickness really affected the people and families. So we were lucky that way. And we had to focus on the things that mattered the most, to us the things that mattered the most literally to the business to keep us going to get to the next day. It challenged our creative thinking it challenged our resolve. And I think we came out of it even though I think we're probably you know, all in it probably set us back a year, year and a half maybe from a business trajectory, but it made us a lot stronger. longer as a company, and I think the things that the choices that we made during that time really set us up for much more long term success than we probably even would have had under smoother time. So
Michael Sarraille 05:10
but you know, another in, I want to put a pin on this right here, because we're gonna come back to it, because I'm sure at the time, you're like, this is probably the lowest moment in my life. And now looking back, you're probably like, that was the biggest learning experience, the biggest grit resiliency building, character building experience I've ever been through. But did it really set you back when it's set? Everyone back a year to 1.5 years? Just giving you a different optics on that.
Harry Arnett 05:39
Mike, thank you. You chiseled away my perfectionism again? You're absolutely right. I guess who cares? Timelines are irrelevant, you know? So no, I just, I think my expectation going in leaving something, leaving something that I love leaving something that, you know, quantifiable, frankly, and then comparing that, you know, just based on even before but in the in the, in the context that you just spring? Yeah, absolutely. We're, we're right, where we should be ahead of, I think, where our expectations were, as far as what we think the brand has meaning to people. And just the the level of connectivity that we've been able to have internally and with the people that buy our products.
Michael Sarraille 06:28
What is so you'd almost added a story to municipal, that you didn't intend to be part of the storyline because of the promotion. But what you know what that that one, put that one year to 1.5 years? In your expectations? I call that in, you know, I wrote a book called The everyday warrior, the podcast called The everyday warrior. It's because you sir, like, like all lawyers hold themselves to to high standards. But here, I want to back up. And we'll get back to this. Give people you know, over three, five minutes, what your background is, especially with with TaylorMade and Callaway, and then who the hell came up with the idea of municipal? I'm assuming it's you, and how did you go from the back of a napkin to full fledged pitching it to to your partners, but give us just a little background on you.
Harry Arnett 07:19
Yeah, so I've always worked in, in the last 20 years worked at at product lead companies that that are in the workout sports space. Russell athletic left there went to tailor made, then to Callaway, a lot of learning on all three, you know all three of those experiences TaylorMade really dynamic time where TaylorMade separated itself from the entire golf industry by virtue of marketing innovation, and transitioning from being entirely sales driven to being more market led into Callaway, which was a full turnaround dusting that brand off modernizing the positioning, modernizing the way that we marketed modernizing the way that we we connected to golfers in a way to explain our, our difference in the market and being and being innovation led. So that really set me up to to this experience of municipal and to answer your question, it really was a collaboration among me Mark and live and others that were part of the early team on on the brand mark and live had had been wanting to to get into the the apparel space, the gear space for a long time. And Mark was going through a transition of of his of his own, on what he wanted to spend his time and effort and energy on for the next you know, 20 or 30 years he had, he had made that transition in the entertainment world where he was starting to be more out in front more producing more creating instead of just being a hired gun. And he felt that same way about this business that he just didn't want to be a hired gun. He didn't want to just be a brand ambassador for some big brand. And he really wanted something that represented himself and something that he could kind of sink his teeth into and help direct and help develop the business and the stuff that he really is passionate about. And so Mark and live had had this this notion of, of a brand in the sport space of being kind of the the giving more and more people access to quality and to start I'll, that maybe they weren't used to getting so or making those kinds of compromises. And so I love that I really loved. I really loved that that mission of let's let's make incredible style and low quality and luxury, let's make that really accessible for the masses. And the more that we started talking about it, the more that we started to really shape what this brand was going to be in terms of the products we made, and the influences that would go into it. So sport performance, because we love we love sports, we love athletes, also some luxury luxury cues, because we love the whole experience, the luxury experience, you get the white glove treatment, the just the the concierge aspect of what luxury brands are all about. We didn't like the exclusivity part of that. And we were, we're thinking about cool street wear, style. And then the other thing, and this is probably because of where we were in our lives is like we don't want to sacrifice comfort. Because at any given point, we're going from meetings to gym, to picking the kids up to whatever else. You in the office, and we want to have comfort that's versatile among all those things. So you throw those into a pot, Mike, you just throw them in, shake it up. And I think that my experience, working at kind of big companies, big dynamic places, was making sense of all of those things into a cohesive brand positioning, and getting the team oriented around what it is we're trying to accomplish. So I love long story short, who is responsible? Everyone was responsible because this thing has its everyone's fingerprints on it, including the feedback loops that we developed early on from, from customers and early fans of the brand that would kind of signal to us what direction we should be going after we launched it because launching the business is a great accomplishment for anyone. But really where the rubber hits the road is how willing are you to have your ears be so much bigger than your mouth? And to not get wrapped around your own ego that you know you have the answers for everything.
Michael Sarraille 12:41
That so that that brings up. So it's such a good topic, but I don't know if you recognize that I almost love it to the brand. Because you're like, Yeah, we wanted quality luxury sports performance, luxury, prestige, sort of that concierge experience. Oh, and I gotta go pick up the kids. Yeah, we got actually 70 It's just, exactly that's, it's, I don't want to say it's a sad state of life of like, hey, guess what, your 30s 40s 50s you have kids, you can still be the badass. And yeah, you gotta go pick up the kids in the minivan or whatever SUV you got. So when you were looking in, you talk about brand positioning, and you guys got really excited, like you got really excited. And now you're moving from companies that you stepped into that are well established, and you're starting from scratch, which having been an entrepreneur, and most of my companies have failed or, or textbook failures, and I'm fine with that. I've learned a lot from them. And the ones that have done well are doing well. As you looked at brand positioning, what was the closest brand that you guys saw? Compared to what your vision was? Or was that space Blue Ocean Strategy completely open for the taking in your eyes?
Harry Arnett 13:48
Well, my, for better or for worse, I think me Mark and Lev shared this one attribute is that we don't like to do things that other people have done. So that hurt us at the beginning not hurt us that that that challenged us early because any any new entrant into a big space like athletic apparel, for example. It's it's a lot easier to be where this version of that or where the lesser where the where the more inexpensive version of that or the more expensive version of that. Then you also will hear a lot of people describe themselves that way of like, who are you? Oh, were were like the more masculine Lululemon. Or were you were the were the more performance oriented Nike, you know, Under Armour were the more aggressive masculine, Nike Under Armour were the more we're the more coastal version of Lululemon million companies. And so we didn't like that. We didn't like that, you know, we wanted to be our own thing and we thought that we thought that if we could create our own lane and do our own thing That would be a much bigger chance for us to succeed. Because internally and externally, every play that we ran that was going towards that positioning was going to be correct just because it was our own positioning. So But to answer your question, what we really were thinking was if, if, if the versatility and, and kind of fabric performance of an athleisure brand like Lululemon and the premium this was going to get into a consensual relationship with Nike, so bringing the sport performance, use of color, energy, emotion around the brand, and then that consensual relationship extended into a really cool, exciting style that was driven from what was happening at the at the cultural level, ie streetwear. So like supreme, if supreme Lululemon Nike and the lat the final piece of the puzzle was core stuff that everyone wanted. So there's a brand out here called James purse that we like a lot. It's a you know, it's a expensive brands like $200 T shirts. If those four brands like had a baby, what would that be? And that's municipal. So to answer your question, who, who inspired us, like a lot of brands inspired a ton of brands inspired us. But we also thought, there's a curatorial part about what municipal is all about, that we're going to we're going to bring to the table influences from all the thing, all those things, hopefully, in one cohesive package, that will be your favorite brand. And a brand that you feel like you're going to want to buy a lot of because it's it's kind of everything that you're wearing all the time, every day, we're not, we're not fashion, we're not street fashion, you don't have to feel weird that you're wearing something that looks like you're trying too hard. We it's also performance oriented, so it's going to inspire you. And it has the versatility and comfort that you can wear it every day. And we just felt like that brand didn't exist. Because we we've bought everything. We've looked at everything either as competitors, or as consumers. And the brand that we always wanted didn't exist. So rather than sit around and wait for it, let's go make it ourselves.
Michael Sarraille 17:35
It's okay to look at other business models or other competitors in the space and say, Hey, what did they do? Well, what, more importantly, what are they missing? And how do we feel that need it? That's, that's part of the
Harry Arnett 17:46
I mean, that's innovation. No, that's innovation is is in that works every every damn time. If you see somebody doing something cool in another industry, if you bring elements of that to an industry that doesn't have it that works, that works. I've been doing that for on unknowingly for 30 years of having to have a job of being influenced and inspired by stuff I've seen outside of my little tunnel vision of my industry and thinking like, how would we bring that into that either like that exact business model or, or influences of how they connect with consumers and do that, and in a similar way in the industry that I was in.
Michael Sarraille 18:28
So we always believe that, you know, special operations has a sexy nature to it. That I know a lot of business leaders read books about special operations, small teams that statistically go up against larger forces and come out on top time and time again. The funny thing is, when we're in special operations, who do you think we're writing books, or we're reading books about you guys. And one of the most amazing trips I ever took, and I helped set up with a guy named Bill Campbell, who was known as the secret coach of Silicon Valley. He was the director of the board for Apple and then CEO of Intuit, but because I was born in in, in Palo Alto, California, but we 20 CEOs sat down with Larry Ellison, Sergey Brin, Marc Benioff, Tim Cook, the list goes on, and was supposed to be a leadership exchange, I'll assure you, we exchanged squat. We were writing down and listening to these, these world class cutting edge leaders, the entire team and we took so much away that people are like, Well, what does that have to do with special operations and to which are applied every fucking thing? Everything, how they run their organizations, best practices. I just interviewed a surfer 1977 World Champ and this guy's ability to reflect on what he learned. And I'm not a surfer What, like I took so much away from it. I'm like, Okay, I need to implement that in my life, implement that in my life. But I want to say here, you know, it's it's Everyone is trying to differentiate themselves. And you guys have actually proven that you have. But I'm not kidding you three times, in the last 60 days, I've heard people come in, they're like, hey, you know, we want to come on your podcast, we're creating this product or this service, we're differentiated from everyone else in the space, we're pretty much like the Uber of apparel. And I'm like, everyone is saying, Uber have this I'm like, then that's not really differentiated. And maybe there is no, true, you know, differentiation, especially in a space that you guys stepped into, that's dominated by some giants. That's dude, I think I'd be the guy in the room that are like, Hey, let's, let's think twice about this. Because we're, we're stepping into, is it safe to say you guys stepped into a saturated market? I mean, that that's a huge,
Harry Arnett 20:45
I mean, absolutely. I always remember that. That saying, like, if if the reason you're starting something starts with the how big the market is, you probably don't have a great idea. So we kind of started with the idea. And then and then figured out where where it was going to fit. And going after a niche that turned out to be a pretty broad swath of a pretty big market. You know, the addressable market wasn't where we started, we started with what would be what's the thing that we feel like is so needed by everyone that doesn't exist? Not how big is that market, you know, the market in the United States is $100 billion. So that's pretty big. If we can just carve out our little niche, municipal sport utility gear, making the most comfortable versions of the shit you wear all the time. From the morning, you you know, the minute you wake up to the night time you go to bed and everywhere in between, with and build a brand that actually stands for something, then not only will we build something pretty valuable, like that's going to be really fun for us to work on. And getting back to your you know, the original. Some of the thinking about how often do you work? I mean, if maybe I work all the time, does that mean that I'm have books out in front of me while I'm sitting at dinner with the kids? No, but it's, it's it's a it's a thing that inspires me and something that I love
Michael Sarraille 22:12
it, you know, there's, there's two ways to approach this, this, this train of thought, hey, you're not spending as much time with your family. But I think you're also setting an example of hard work. And if you take just a minute to reinforce your kids, hey, the reason that daddy's working so hard, is to provide a different life for you guys. And hopefully, you're taking away the lessons but you talk about total addressable market. It's so funny, and I often hear because, you know, in Austin, it's it's a startup nation out here. We try to call ourself silicon hills, but nothing touches. So that's, that's thick. They want to believe. Well, the total addressable market, if we just get 1%, we'll make 100 million. Yeah, good luck with that. I think that's where people get emotional. But let me let me ask you this in truth here, who came up with municipal? Or did you guys go out to a branding agency? Because God knows, branding agencies are freaking awesome. It was all internal.
Harry Arnett 23:10
Yeah, Mark, and Lev had come up with that name. Because they really, they were thinking, Where is the place that everyone starts with their, their passion for sport, where's the place is to municipal courts. And so they were, you know, missable golf courses, municipal courts, municipal, whatever, like things that are just available to everyone. And so they were, it was a concept that they had, you know, municipal, what, what is just the name sounds cool. The name sounds like it's been around forever. It is a matter of fact, every time that we get in front of a customer, or a fan of the brand, who has just discovered us, they all assume we've been around forever, because the name sounds like it's been around forever. Yeah. And, again, that from a philosophical perspective, we really wanted a brand. If we were going to do something, we really wanted it to matter to people that we wanted it to somehow change the trajectory of their life above and beyond making stuff that they thought was cool to wear or comfortable to wear that really, if you're if you're wearing a municipal product, we wanted that to inspire you and say something about the type of person you are. And so the name really is tapping into that part of your life where you thought, if you could dream it, it could happen and to not have any self consciousness to not have any barrier to not have any past experience. Limit your thinking or limit your your self belief In what was possible, and and we that's what it is. That's what it's all about.
Michael Sarraille 25:08
Live Yeah. See this? When they came to you that name? Did you? Did you have a positive reaction? Or maybe allergic reaction at first? Or did you just have to sit on it for a while?
Harry Arnett 25:19
I loved it because it haven't been around like, I do not like, this is a personal thing. I do not like brands that don't have the name doesn't mean anything. Yeah, I don't like brands, fashion brands of names of people that don't exist. That Oh, this this name of, you know, William added to this sounds like a pretty cool name or, and you can name 1000 brands that have names of people that don't exist, or some mythical, some mythical cyan or mythical siren song to the, the, the type of image that they want to portray, like, that makes me want to puke. I don't like that. I don't I can't stand it.
Michael Sarraille 26:05
I don't tell me how I feel. Yeah, I
Harry Arnett 26:07
just like, you're gonna get that for me. I just don't like that. I like things that have that have meaning. And I love names that are simple enough that you don't have to like ponder what what the name is all about, or what the name means. So when they saw that, when they mentioned that, I immediately let my mind start to wander of what that would look like, in you know, on things, how we would talk about it, how how we really could create events and, and stuff around community around education around the things that are beyond just the transaction. And I love that I love big simple names. It's bold. It again, looks like it's been around forever. And there's real substance, there's a real substance substantive connotation to it. And a real like kind of lunch Paley connotation to it, it's not a sexy name. It's not tricky. It's not trying to be something that it's not. And that that was what we wanted to our company and our brand to be and the people that work there to be what you see is what you get, we say what we mean, we're honest, we are integrity cannot be compromised. We try we try to say it with kind candor, we're never going to belittle anyone in our company, we're never going to insult anyone in the company, or externally, intentionally. But we are going to tell you what we mean. And if we say it, you can trust that we believe what we're saying. And selling
Michael Sarraille 27:41
it. So I love that. And I'm a firm believer in you lift your partners up, you don't push them down, especially publicly if either something to deal with internally, you deal with it internally and then move on as a team. Let me ask this from the time that the three of you live in Mark, and yourself said Okay, let's go to launch. And I understand just prior to launch COVID hid how much planning was involved. We guys plan this for a year, 18 months before launch?
Harry Arnett 28:12
You're not going to like this answer because you're really practical guy. But I'd say me personally, I've been planning for it for 30 years.
Michael Sarraille 28:21
It was your passion.
Harry Arnett 28:23
Yeah, I mean, I always wanted to build something, I always wanted something that would that would showcase the beauty and the the heroism of the every day. And would would also inspire people to to get out of their own way to chisel away audible shit and read discover or rediscover self belief in pursuit of making big things happen like that just now I just crystallized 30 years of probably a lot of different thoughts into what that meant. So for me 30 years for marking love a similar story. Now when did it come down to the three of us saying enough screwing around? Let's put pen to paper and make this shit happen. From the moment we did that to the moment when there was a product to be to be purchased I guess, was probably around two years. And I was probably the holdup there because I had a really comfortable job that I loved. And you know we I was trying to think of I was trying to not force myself into this binary thing of like, either can do this or I have to leave and go do this. So I was like okay, let me not let me let me stay in the middle somewhere and figure out what's what is that space in the middle of those two that binary decision look like try not to force myself down into the you know, the fallacy of of binary choices. And, and where I would say that's good advice 99% of time, in this particular case, it was the horse, it was the worst thing I could have done. Because it it, it, it's it forced me into a stasis that was really unhealthy to live in between those two worlds. So it's sort of like not all that present in one and not all that present the other. And, you know, the married really well. And my wife was like, What are you doing? Like, go do this, you have to do this? What are you, you know, what are you doing? Are you going to sit around another 30 years trying to figure out the perfect opportunity. And let me help you understand, if it fails, you're going to learn a lot in the process, you are not going to sit here at 8080 years old and regret that you never went for it. And if it fails, you have enough track record, that you can go do something else. But also, let me tell you this, having known you for a while, it's not going to fail, it's going to be successful in some regard, what that looks like, who cares? If you put a number to it, then you're falling into the trap of thinking about the addressable market instead of building something really cool and special. Seth got married her.
Michael Sarraille 31:14
So but here's the here's the reason people don't do entrepreneurship, is because when you get a salary, I know, I'm assuming you were the CMO of Callaway at the time. Yeah. That's hard to leave that for the unknown. Tell me about 99%. Or like, Yeah, screw that dude. But it's more, it's less what I want to do and more the spouse whether it's you know, whether you're a woman that's making the decision, go into your husband, go to your wife. And so often I married about my weight class, big time, same. I'll be like, hey, I
Harry Arnett 31:46
want to do that nice, Mike in that nice.
Michael Sarraille 31:49
It's nice. But usually I refrain for like three months of like approaching my wife and saying, hey, I want to leave this company and go do this. And she's like, Yeah, if I can do it, I'm like, Are you fucking kidding me? That's, that's the answer, because that would be three months ago. Oh, that. That's so awesome. So all your hard work two years, you guys are trying on product? Let me ask this before you go in. Have you ever been emotionally attached to a product? And then Mark and LeBron your partners are like, Yeah, we don't like it.
Harry Arnett 32:18
And yeah, I mean, a lot. A lot of times, a lot of times that happens. And you know, it's, it's not a I hope they're not gonna watch this, like, it's not a democracy, it's not a democracy, it's not really a democracy, either. Because you try to, if you try to design and develop anything great by committee, then that's not it doesn't really work that way. Well, I think sometimes it can. And, you know, I think that I'm open minded enough that to not fall in love with to not fall in love with the toys, so much so, or not, you know, not fall in love with the idea so much and more, more be passionate about the execution, and the buy in from as many people as possible for the end product. And we try to hire that way, too. So, you know, it's one thing to hire really creative people, which we do. But we also want to make sure that we hire people that are fully bought in to the notion of, of value based collaboration is what our innovation is all about. It's a team sport. And you have to hire people that love that process. And so, you know, yeah, there's tons of time. As matter of fact, it makes me a little nervous when I show them something that we have have come up with, and they're like, great, we love it how it is, because then I start to question Are you really engaged in this, because, because that's too easy. So a good example of that, like is we have we have shoes, we're launching a shoe in the middle of the year, and towards the end of the year. Now that's audacious to the company of ours are lots of shoe. But we have an awesome concept. That's very, it's it represents our brands so well. And you get three people that are passionate about shoes in a room, you're going to have three really different opinions about what they should be, what they should, what the technology should be, how prevalent that technology should be, what you should be using it for. So that whole process, I think, with the team and our partners that are helping us make the shoe and bring it to life has been really really healthy because because it sort of expands the expands the the set of data that you have going into something so but at the end of the day, again, it's not a democracy, somebody's got to make the call and somebody has to Be willing to say if this thing fails, you do not have to look at the process you do not have to look at you got you just got to look at one person and and that's why I wanted to start a company I wanted I wanted the ball, give me the ball, just like
Michael Sarraille 35:15
Michael Jordan. Yeah. What's that quote from Michael Jordan like I've I've get you've taken 9000 shots been trusted with the game winning shot like 300 times missed. And it's because I fail that I succeed. But there's two points right here. And usually just, I do this more for me than the listeners, but one emotional attachment. And I think this this for some people who have the ability to reflect and learn. I think with age, you learn to become less emotionally attached to things because you realize I don't have all the answers if you ask 25 year old Mike as a seal, like whose way is the right way. It's 100% Mine. And now I see that if somebody's more passionate about something, they may see something that I don't see. And so I've become less emotionally attached. But I'm dealing with this right now. Here he is, when I've got great partners, a guy named Andy stump who has been on Rogan like six times, he's got one of the largest podcast clear at hot, and Nick Cush, who's just getting into business. He was one of like, the world renowned skydivers is we're a partnership at the day I at the end of the day, indeed, I founded the company, but I'm the majority, you know, equity holder is yes, collaboration to a point, listen to people put your perspective side and try to hear what they're saying. But at the end of the day, you can't miss this decision by committee will never work. And the buck has to stop with one person. It guy works.
Harry Arnett 36:38
Fortunately, now, Mike, those kinds of decisions don't get us killed before they put up when you're
Michael Sarraille 36:44
20. Yeah.
Harry Arnett 36:47
By committee. I mean by committee. I mean, imagine, imagine this isn't will be easy for everyone to understand. Also, I shouldn't full disclosure, I've never been a seal. So I just want to say that. So anything I say that's not right leader. Can you imagine? Can you imagine being on a mission, and then having whoever was the the mission leader turned to the team and say, What do you guys want to do? I mean, how's that mission gonna go?
Michael Sarraille 37:12
Actually, Mark was in a movie, where they did that. And it turned out horribly. No, that's a whole different subject. What he did great job with that film. But no, that's a key point is heaviest, the head that wears the crown, in your title. At the end of the day, even though there's there's there's multiple co founders is CEO, and the buck stops with you. And sometimes it's making that hard decision, which I found that a lot of people just don't want to make that hard decision. And it's not what's best for people. It's what's right for the organization. And that's, that's hard. Let me ask you this man. So again, we hit it early in the podcast, you guys short of launch COVID hits? What was the lowest moment for you? And don't don't bore everyone questions, their decisions. Were and I know, for me, it's like, when I'm at my worst, I look at my my wife. And I'm like, I think I made a huge mistake. Did you hit that at some point during COVID? And just say like, either I think I made a huge mistake, or, Hey, I think we're gonna fail. And even people who I know are the most resilient that drive through things to have that moment, did you have that moment during COVID
Harry Arnett 38:18
I didn't have this, I didn't have that feeling that we were going to fail. I, I felt every day that the that if I didn't bring my best that day, that people were going to lose jobs. So I but I didn't feel like municipal wouldn't exist, we were far enough along in the planning, where I could see this is something that has real potential and value, what the value is, who knows, but the value isn't zero. But I just felt the keen sense of responsibility that I didn't want anyone to lose their job. I did not want anyone to have COVID and the uncertainty of not being employed. So So which low days were they were they all of them? Because that's a lot of fucking pressure. And I think that in hindsight, what, what I did sort of instinctively and some some consciously is I really leaned on my values, hard hard, and I challenged myself to not be the smallest version of myself during that time, which is a natural thing to hold up and, you know, cocoon up, I challenged myself to be the largest version of myself and and to uh, to, to put myself in motion. So there's, there's something that that really inspired me years ago and it was somebody he was actually talking about by being bipolar. And this person said, you know, when you're bipolar and you kind of have these big swings, from euphoria to depression, and when you're when you're in your euphoric part, you that's the nice part is that feels really good. And you feel like you're unstoppable, the and bulletproof. The challenge is you feel like you're bulletproof. So you don't nobody. You don't weigh you don't weigh risk, you don't weigh. You don't you don't synthesize data. And the same way you get tunnel vision, that's a problem. And when you're depressed, I think everybody can understand that that makes you feel like you're, you're you're, you're vulnerable to everything. And the, this is a really simple construct. But when you're when you when you are aware that you're in that euphoric moment, that's the time when you need to force yourself to slow down. So just peace and quiet and be contemplative. So and then conversely, when you're in that depressive state, that's the time to force yourself to get into motion. And so if as simple as if you if you're feeling depressed, which we all have those moments of feeling vulnerable and feeling. Whether it's impostor syndrome, or whatever that really gets you, that holds you back, get into motion, make a phone call, write something down, go for a walk, don't just sit there and let your own you know, your own brain chemistry or, or words in your, you know, your the bad voices in your, in your brain pounded down. And so I really was thinking about that a lot. During that time. It's like when I felt down, and I felt alone and isolated, forced myself to make a phone call, call a teammate, get on a zoom, call, and just connect, call my partners, come up with something, think about the future, you know, whatever it is, and that really helped helped me as a leader during that time. When leader being the leader is alone under is feels alone under the best of circumstances.
Michael Sarraille 42:38
So if he's the head heavy,
Harry Arnett 42:41
it's just like, it's so it's so lonely. People stop telling you things, they stop talking to you. They, you know, so that was to answer your original question, I would say every day, every day I was in, I was challenging myself to knock Kuhn up and, and, and feel like the grass was greener and to, from a personal standpoint, go back to my values. And from a business standpoint, go back to the vision of what we want it to be. And that that kept me optimistic. Even at a time when there wasn't a lot to be optimistic about
Michael Sarraille 43:17
know, it was basic questions, but it's interesting you say about depression, in just forcing yourself to move if you look at national disasters, across all spectrum of national disasters, and survivability, the higher survival rate is for those that actually leap into action, just keep on moving or conducting some sort of action. In a lot of ways it has to do with victimhood. When you're in depression, you feel like a victim. And it's very easy to stay there. Let me ask you this, because, you know, here, you're built differently than most people. And you can see hardship for what it is and that you need to keep moving forward in some way, even if that's one step forward, in a way but for a lot of the people that join municipal also took risks compared to you. Did you find you had to leap into maybe explaining the vision and cheerleading or coaching people to stay on on the path despite the let's be honest, COVID was was fucking horrible. I felt like I was back on deployment, like stuck on a base overseas that you can't leave and it's a small base. Did you find that you had to like lean on those leadership skills? You knew you had you learned over the 30 years? Did you find you had to like actually lead at a greater extent during those times?
Harry Arnett 44:31
Were absolutely and I guess I also to Mike, I didn't feel I did not feel like I needed to get in front of the team and tell them that I knew. I knew how we were going to get out of it. All I all I really kept going back to was we've gotten to this point because we have a great idea. We've gotten to this point because we have been committed to this, we have this thing going on that's way outside of our control, we meaning mark, Lev and I are committed to this business, we are not going to, we are not going to bail on it, it's going to look different. So we're going to have to really preserve cash, which is going to put, it's going to feel different. But guess what, there's a pandemic here. So life is different. And, but we have enough faith in ourselves, and we have enough faith in the group that we're going to figure out a way to get through this. And to, to come out, whatever, if there's another end of it, we're going to figure out a way to come out a better a better company and a better group. And that's all that we can commit to. Because I don't know what that looks like, I just know, we're gonna launch this business at some point, and we're gonna get through it. And we're committed that was that was really as simple as it got. And to remind the team over and over again, that that's the case. And we didn't have all the answers. But I must have said 1000 times, I don't have all the answers. But I know, somehow, within this team, we're going to come up with something that we can all get behind and keep going.
Michael Sarraille 46:21
That's, that's, that's inspiring. So you guys have made it through COVID. You're thriving. Were just mean, yes, we'll go from here. What are you most excited about and leading into the next decade?
Harry Arnett 46:34
got new categories. I mentioned. I mentioned Shoes, shoes, I'm so I'm so pumped up for what we're doing in that category. I'm really, I'm really excited for that I think people are going to be really jacked up about the product we have and what our take on it is we're opening up our first retail locations this year. Yeah, so we got we got one coming in, in the fall. Lm here in San Diego, and we got one coming in LA, we have one coming in Las Vegas where Mark is. And so we were gonna go from like, having only being online for the most part to having maybe as many as maybe six retail locations in the next year. And I think our concept I'm so excited about that, too. So it's sort of like represents our brand, like who would who would, who is your retail concept remind you of is like, I don't think it's gonna remind anybody of anything. I think they're gonna walk in and think this is the place I always wanted to exist. And then we're expanding internationally over the next two years, which really excited about, and then you'll start to see us in more places, I guess. So. We feel like just in in classic terms, we feel like we've proven the concept. And it's time now to expand and we're scaling which brings a whole other different set of problems. So maybe have me back on in a year and see how big the bags under my eyes are. But people are going to start seeing us seeing us a lot. Yeah,
Michael Sarraille 48:08
don't Doug. Well, first off done. It's interesting going into a brick and mortar, you know, one company or business model that I've seen it's done this absolutely well, based out of Austin here is a boot company called to kill this was sort of disrupted a legacy industry. But they're brick and mortars in I'm sure you guys are focusing on customer experience. But the second you step into one of their stores, one, all you smell is leather. And before you know it, you've got a whiskey in your hand with one of those big ice cubes. Yes, just on Well, man, are you guys trying to definitely differentiate yourselves on the customer experience for that first step they take.
Harry Arnett 48:47
That's all it is. So we really want we don't want to be an errand. Municipal cannot be an errand, it needs to be a destination. So when you go there, we want you hanging out. And I think the the cool part about our brand, is we literally are the favorite brand of people from from 13 or 14 to 90 years old. So you can imagine what that might look like and feel like in that kind of that kind of environment. From the types of partnerships we're bringing in to the types of programming I say the types of events we'll have, because also the name municipal. If we're there, it has to add value to the community. We don't want to just be some dumb retail location that you an errand that you have to you pass by and think I'll pop in and buy a pair of underwear. That's not what our brand is all about. So the customer experience is everything to us. We've started with we started with that if if we're walking in what are the things that we would want to have happen in a pretty large format environment? And we're really excited about it. And I guess the the other thing I would say is we know it's not going to be right right out of the gate but the the one you walk into an ox Over, it's probably going to be different in November based on what we learned in October.
Michael Sarraille 50:04
And that's in San Diego. Yeah, that will be San
Harry Arnett 50:07
Diego. Okay. And it depends on whether that one's first or one in Vegas is first, but I think people are going to be really, really enthusiastic about it.
Michael Sarraille 50:16
Got it San Diego. That's my old stomping grounds, man. So I have to make sure that I mean, Harry, what do you tell me? If you give a seal discount? I'll get the all the way actually
Harry Arnett 50:26
do we actually do we take care of our men and women uniform? They're really they're really important to us. And it's such a part of being here in the in you mentioned it like we're, we're a little bit sad. We're connected to the largest marine base in the world. And we're 30 miles north of like the coolest place on earth Coronado where they train you guys to protect us. So if you're if you're active duty or retired, you never pay full price municipal baby,
Michael Sarraille 50:58
then we had to work that in there. Now we do appreciate the discounts, especially on Veterans Day, when you get Applebee's for for free. I'm kidding. Well, here, we end this podcast in a certain way. And then we're going to take all the guests we've had from Sammy Hagar to you know, Dave Batista to you the Red Rock, he had the red rocker on the show. Amazing. He was one he looks great for his age, despite Hey,
Harry Arnett 51:28
guys, I couldn't have if I can have half the energy. What how Sammy? 74. I mean, he's, he's like that, ya
Michael Sarraille 51:36
know, similar to you. He's got an eye for branding in he was the first to admit he's like, hey, I can I can envision a brand. And then I gotta go find the people to come in and run the company. You've got both. Hey,
Harry Arnett 51:48
I only know Cabo, because I am. But that was 30 years ago, whenever I put it on
Michael Sarraille 51:52
the map, put it on. Yeah. So we end with this. As if you were talking to your kids, and you wanted to impart wisdom. What are the three keys to success for Harry that you would want other people to know about? So they can take those breadcrumbs and possibly implement it into their lives?
Harry Arnett 52:14
Well, I number one is if the only way to, to the only way to real, like happiness and contentment, which which ultimately will be success, in my opinion, is to follow your values. And to follow them, if you're going to follow them, you have to know what they are. So the earlier there's, it's never too early to talk about that with your kids. And then the the second part of that, to me is, it's pretty easy. dream it up, plan around it, hustle, repeat, it's as simple as that. Nothing great exists in your head, It all exists out there. So get get out there, try stuff. Don't be afraid to fail. And then the third thing is, which is equally as important is don't try to meet someone else's expectations. Just it's talked about fool's gold, Mike, if you try to meet other people's expectations, you're never going to meet your own. So you know, always set your standards higher than everyone else's, and do what you want to do. Follow your own passion, not the passion of somebody else. If you're if you're a doctor, because your dot your your parents wanted you to be a doctor, you're not going to be a very happy Doctor. And if you're not a happy doctor, you're not going to be very good one.
Michael Sarraille 53:43
It's written in this. This book right here is Know thyself. No one can define success other than human. And we were just I was just talking to Pat Williams in Orlando about this radio show. You know, I learned from a guy named Dr. Johnny Kim, one of the most remarkable human beings I went to buds SEAL training with him. La first generation Korean American his dad was an alcoholic abusive. He actually called the police on his dad in his senior year. There was a standoff his dad was shot and killed but navy seal was awarded the Silver Star then bronze star to two battles back to back, Navy send them back to college to to become an officer he finished mathematics with a 4.0 they wanted to send him back to the SEAL teams as an officer he wanted to become a navy doctor. He got into Harvard became a Harvard educated Doctor three years after being a doctor applied for NASA out of 18,000 applicants. He was one of the top 12 selected became an astronaut. All of this by the age of 34. What a failure. Dude, I know we say he's the least hardest working man in the SEAL teams and he's still the most humble, kind, empathetic, respectful dude. But he said he had the hardest time because his dad had a very different definition of success and as a man he had to, to I guess read Define what he wanted and what he defined as success. And he said he wants that passed on to his kids. Don't be me. If you want to be a pianist, just pour into it and follow your dreams. I found that powerful. I do have to ask you this. Follow your values, because it sounds like a Hallmark card in I believe it. Is there a scenario where for expediency just to secure success, you got to accomplish the contemplate breaking your own values, values.
Harry Arnett 55:28
I think it happens all the time. You know, you're in any leadership role, or any any pursuit, you're constantly challenged by things that are going to be more convenient. It's more convenient, not to it's more convenient, easier, it's a lot easier to just avoid telling somebody something, if you value if you value integrity, and you value you know, the learning and it's a lot easier to avoid those kinds of things, certainly. So it happens all the time. But if you know what they are in the path becomes a lot easier. It's not it's not complex, really, you know? And you learn a lot of that you do you do learn from experience, and you do learn from getting mistakes. Yeah, and you learn the mistakes and you kind of go back and realize the times that that I was unhappiest were the times when I felt like I was really outside of those values. Yeah.
Michael Sarraille 56:27
On any given day. What needs to occur for you, as a man workouts, anything family time, what is it for you?
Harry Arnett 56:36
Mine is absolutely getting a workout in getting cardio in not, because it makes me look like the chiseled beast that I am. I am not a chiseled beast. But it's the only thing I have found that gets my brain chemistry, right? To get out of my head and feeling like I'm going to live a life realized. So I have to do something. And I've forced myself over the years to embrace the fact that an imperfect workout is better than no workout at all. So even if it's 15 or 20 minutes of, of 13 minute mile pace around the neighborhood, like looking like an old guy. That's so much better than doing nothing for for my brain chemistry and nothing else.
Michael Sarraille 57:28
You may have inadvertently just told people it's okay to just go to the gym and be on your phone the entire time.
Harry Arnett 57:34
Whatever it takes, whatever it takes.
Michael Sarraille 57:38
So first off, leading into this question, how many hours a day do you think you work on on your given companies?
Harry Arnett 57:46
I mean, I think it's, it's, it's what, it's what drives my passion. So I don't I wouldn't even be able to quantify it. I'm thinking about something all the time. And when I'm at my best, I'm thinking about the things that inspire me not the day to day, you know, Bs in the business that you have to be thinking about administrative things, paperwork, tasks, knocking off the checklist, that's that's not really what what is absorbing me and the non kind of office hours, but I would say if I'm awake 18 hours, I'm thinking about something related to the business or learning all 18 Really, I mean, if learning is part of running a business and it should be then it's it's every waking hour.
Michael Sarraille 58:32
So for you in terms of staying efficient time management, what do you utilize to stay on task? Because I know you've got a long list is it like time blocking staying off social media? What works for Harry?
Harry Arnett 58:44
Oh, well, I mean, I have a pretty significant attention deficit. So the My way of accomplishing things tends to be a boat kind of rocking the ocean of it. So I have to plan like the next day the night before. And I'm also at the same time I don't love surprises. So if I can get a picture of how the day is going to be the night before I go into the next day a lot more calmer and a lot more confident that I'm going to have that I'm going to add value to the business and the teams and our customers and stuff the next day. So it always starts the night before and again it's just like workout I don't have to make that perfect an hour. You know workaholics sit there it's it's literally look at my phone and get a picture of what's going to happen for that day. And then also that drives a lot when I want to show up. Literally show up in the office because that's the other thing about about being an entrepreneur and having your own businesses is is you don't have to conform to however you've worked in the past based on whatever the the industry or or company requirements where you really can set it up, however you feel you're going to be the most successful. Yeah,
Michael Sarraille 1:00:09
currently alive today, who do you respect or look up to, and what,
Harry Arnett 1:00:17
it's not really a person, it's a category. And honestly, it's working moms. I mean, the working moms of the world are the heroes to me, I have a bunch on my team. And it just it blows me away, what they're able to accomplish and the requirements on their time, their emotional energy, but to also hold that their family requirements and and having careers is mind blowing to me that, that they're able to do it. I'm fortunate that that I don't have to, I don't have to live up to that standard.
Michael Sarraille 1:01:00
To sacrifice all your, your needs for the good of your children to give them better life. And I agree with you, I did have sort of reminiscent sort of vision of Bill Murray and kingpins. But that's a different story.
Harry Arnett 1:01:15
Confirm I was looking for my rubber hand to pull that out.
Michael Sarraille 1:01:20
So, hey, lastly, Ben, what what would you want the listeners to take away from this podcast?
Harry Arnett 1:01:30
There's no such thing as perfect. And I found as, as somebody that that started my own company co founded a company pretty late in my career, you know, I was 49 that what had kind of gotten in my way was certainly not desire, but a misconception or misperception of what is required to, to, to do that. And I guess the big headline is, whatever you bring to the table is enough is enough at the end of the day when you're in it. But you got to just get going and get out of your head. Throw away any any constructs you have, that have anything to do with perfectionism, because that will get in your way every single time of actually accomplishing good things.
Michael Sarraille 1:02:23
Perfection is a is a fucking mirage. It really is.
Harry Arnett 1:02:26
fool's gold. It's fool's gold, isn't it? I mean, it's, I wish, I wish, I wish this version of me could have told the 22 year old two year old version of me that or the 12 year old that would have saved me many, many years of heartache.
Michael Sarraille 1:02:43
I just had Steven Kotler on if you know, Steven Kotler Yeah, 14 novels, okay. He just wrote a book called in our country. It's all about the superpowers of aging. And he taught himself to park ski at the age of 53, which is unheard of within three months, and he was doing some major tricks. But the superpowers of aging, as he said, is one divergent thinking, creativity, intelligence, abstract reasoning, empathy, and wisdom. If you can tap into those, it doesn't matter how old you are, you can do anything that you put your your mind to more so than your 22 year old self. That's, that's great. So Harry, last question, man, when all is said and done, and we asked this to Steven Kotler who's the last one, he's like, I'm not concerned about this. And, you know, that's, that's fair. I beg to disagree. Because it does, it does. I don't wanna say haunt me, but it concerns me. When all is said and done would say that's 50 years from now for you and your 90s Maybe, Yong Yong. 101. What do you want your legacy to be? What do you want to be known for?
Harry Arnett 1:03:46
It could be because I just watched the boy, the mall, the fox and the horse, if you've seen that, that show that movie, or it's a book, but I, I really want to say this to my kids, I really just want people to remember that. That I was kind and I tried tried to give voice to those that didn't have it. And at the end of the day, and that's why I tell my younger daughter that every room was better because I was in it. That's kind of it in and I guess I guess what I'm getting at is is everyone's story is their own story. And if you're if you if you're trying to model your life or your career or your success, after something you read or or the way Bob Iger did it, or the way Nelson Mandela did it, then you're really missing the point because there's only written that way because someone chose to write it that way. But really what it comes down to is the people that are the most successful and and the happiest are the ones that are doing it their way authentically. Now That's That's the bottom line.
Michael Sarraille 1:05:03
I love it, brother. Harry I've I've learned a lot on this podcast man I want to congratulate you uh definitely definitely haven't watching that that that series which was great series in watching you struggle which requires a bit of not have been doing
Harry Arnett 1:05:20
for you Mike I'm glad I was so entertaining for you
Michael Sarraille 1:05:24
i It's been sometimes it's better to watch others struggle than then to go through it yourself Amen to that brother you guys are here today municipal still here and we're still here. I can't wait to see these. The stores open up I can't wait to see the shoe line, of course will drop the link everywhere man and if people can't find municipal The problem is you not them not not you. So again, thank you for coming on man. I guess this has been the Men's Journal everyday warrior. Thank you for joining us until next time
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