Men’s Journal’s Everyday Warrior Podcast With Mike Sarraille is a podcast that inspires individuals to live more fulfilling lives by having conversations with disrupters and high performers from all walks of life. In episode 60, Sarraille spoke to economist, business theorist, and professor Renée Mauborgne.
Mauborgne is a co-author of the book Blue Ocean Strategy, which boldly transformed thought on innovation and business growth. Her followup book, Beyond Disruption, is out now with three decades of research to redefine how businesses approach innovation.
They discuss the American market compared to what we see on a global scale, and what that could mean for our future generations to take it to the next level.
Listen to the full episode above (scroll down for the transcript) and see more from this series below.
This interview has not been edited for length or clarity.
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Michael Sarraille 00:11
All right. I'm excited about this one guys, and welcome to the Men's Journal Everyday Warrior Podcast. I'm your host Mike Sarraille, I've got a woman, who was the first woman—move over Peter Drucker—to be named the most. Let me read this secured the top spot as the world's most influential management thinker. That's, that's insane. And I'm talking about Renée Mauborgne, is I pronounced that correctly? I always get that. Thanks, Mike. Yeah,
Renée Mauborgne 00:40
yeah, it's Renee Mauborgne.
Michael Sarraille 00:42
Rene wrote the book, Blue Ocean Strategy, which the reason I'm excited guys is if you're an MBA program, you read that book. It's like mandatory reading. Much like we have Porter's Five Forces for strategy. It is the new sort of strategy management book. And I think Harvard hailed it as the most influential and impactful business strategy book that has ever existed.
Renée Mauborgne 01:07
Well, I don't know ever existed, but I think, according to them, it's one of the most iconic ones in the last, you know, span of years. Yes.
Michael Sarraille 01:17
I mean, that's amazing. 4 million copies sold. And then you went on to the blue ocean shift. Yes. And now beyond disruption. Yes. Which is this out on the market yet? Or is no next week, next week? So I do have a pre copy. That's awesome. Okay, so we will get this out quickly with an article. But I'm so interested in the evolution of this. But before we get to that evolution in what's in your amazing life. Give us a little background where you started where he came from, and what led you to hear?
Renée Mauborgne 01:48
Well, you know, so I went to University of Michigan, and I met my colleague who is my co author for all these years, chan Kim.
Michael Sarraille 01:57
You guys met his students?
Renée Mauborgne 01:58
Yeah. No, he was actually my teacher.
Michael Sarraille 02:00
You're kidding me?
Renée Mauborgne 02:01
Yeah, he was a young professor. I went and took his class. And he was really inspiring. And it made me feel like, so I love learning. But you meet a lot of people and they're teaching and you say, I like this knowledge. But that's it. But no, when I heard him speak. He was dynamic, practical, theoretical. And so I did very well on that course. And then I ended up doing a second course I believe, together I did for with him and then a private research. And then our journey sort of started. And here we are, like, a long time later. So yeah.
Michael Sarraille 02:47
So when you graduated you I just kept in touch and are working together.
Renée Mauborgne 02:53
Yeah. So when I graduated, I went and I got a job at this company where I was telling you that they asked me look at all these peoples in the insurance industry, can you tell who's in the military or not just by the way they walk? And I said, I was able to largely do that. And then he came actually and did something at that company as well. One thing led to another, I don't really exactly remember the way it evolved. I then went back to Michigan, we did more research published. And yeah, and here we are. So
Michael Sarraille 03:26
that is in of course. You know, we basically recorded a podcast before we even started this one. So you know, you said your father, because it's Military Appreciation Month. Coming up. May your father served in the Marine Corps. God bless Korea.
Renée Mauborgne 03:40
Yes, he did. And first of all, let me say thank you to you for your service. And to every vet and service person out there. Really, I want to thank that. And yeah, my father. He enrolled in the Marines when he was very young, very passionate about it. Then retired private sector, of course, has small business, but yeah, and I grew up hearing the halls of Montezuma playing on a Sunday morning.
Michael Sarraille 04:08
Iconic
Renée Mauborgne 04:09
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the importance of serving in some capacity in some capacity. Yeah. Serving in some capacity and never giving up. Yeah, those were things I always felt from him.
Michael Sarraille 04:25
You were were you born and raised
Renée Mauborgne 04:28
in Westchester County.
Michael Sarraille 04:29
New is something that
Renée Mauborgne 04:31
yeah, man outside of New York.
Michael Sarraille 04:33
Okay. Okay. Yeah, you're talking to a West Coast guy here. So yeah, I've got to confirm that. When did the concept with with chan start? I mean, did you guys say, hey, you've written and published some research papers like hey, let's, we
Renée Mauborgne 04:50
you know, you were in Michigan at the time. And that's like the, I guess the mid 80s. And this is when America was being hit for the first time in its history. With this new global challenge at the time, it was a Japanese, an industry after industry, the auto capital of the world, Detroit was being devastated. They were entire neighborhoods that were once beautiful, completely boarded up. When you went into Detroit, you saw people despondent in the way they walked on the streets, you were in the center of the city, you could park your car anywhere within a half a second, tell me how you can find that in any major city. The air was so heavy, and then that was when the word the rust belt of America was formed. And the hollowing out of America was occurring. And in fact, they called America increasingly the hollow Corporation, the jobs were all leaving entire towns cities, were just getting decimated. And it wasn't just the auto industry. It was textiles was consumer electronics, earthmoving equipment. And so in the press, what we were reading about was the hollowing of American corporation, the best of our industrial might, was behind us. We were young at the time, and it didn't make sense. And everything we were reading about was, how do you survive? And we were thinking, who's interested in surviving? It's how do we thrive? And, and yes, a competition is intensifying. But when we looked at the global economy we're reading, it's like, this is just the first step, all other countries are going to start entering this global economy. So the competition we're seeing today is tough. But it's going to start notching up even more, we're starting a new error. So we had to get learn how to get good and how to not just go down the tubes and accept that we'll just somehow survive. What is it going to take in spite of that to thrive? And then we said, okay, everyone's talking about competing, that's all we learned about, but it was actually competition that was killing us. So we said, is that the only way? And as young people you know, you believe you know, Mikey was saying to me, no one had ever done, what do you call that the seven out of seven? triple seven? It was impossible, but you made it possible? Well, when you're young, that is one thing that I think that's something that is sort of like even our first book Beyond disruption. Now, we started with, you know, a saying, a grounded optimists have the advantage because they always believe a solution is possible and a better world can be built. And you're grounded optimist, because you look at reality, your feet are firmly on the ground, you're not lying to yourself. But you always believe there's another way that was maybe something we eternally believe in my colleague and I, so we said, Okay. Everyone is really barely surviving, we're letting go of people. Everyone isn't it was a very dark time in America. But we said, let's look at are there any companies that are not surviving, but are thriving in spite of this? What are they doing? And we set out to find those companies. And we started finding out interestingly enough, when we talked to companies stuck in what we call that red ocean of declining profits and growth, all they ever told us was, you have no idea how difficult it is, this competition is coming. My cost structure is raising, always attributing which was true, but attributing why everything was difficult to the external environment. But when we talk to the companies that were starting to thrive, they were saying, you know, why the movie theater just going down? Like, why? Because we're not doing anything interesting. They always look to themselves as the reason that we're not doing something exceptional. If we do something exceptional, good things will come in spite of that. And we thought, wow, that's refreshing. It's not the external world that determines my future. It is my own self determination. And my agency that starts to do that, and we started watching what they were doing, and that's where that concept of red to blue ocean competing to creating comes. That's, that's a long answer to that. That's, that's where it is.
Michael Sarraille 08:59
That is great. So one is you talk about external factors. You know, one I love taking military strategy and business strategy, which are have a lot of similarities, more than they have differentiations. But you talked about, you know, acquiescing your agency, that you're not in control of your outcomes. I've found that rarely, external factors are the driving factor in outcomes. It's usually internal. And actually, to the point, you know, Steven Kotler who we add on for his new book in our country, which have you heard about this book, he wrote a book basically, he taught himself to park ski at the age of 53. Park skiing is really a you got to start young. But after like six months, he taught himself a number of tricks, basically saying, hey, there are superpowers of aging. Yeah, so it's a good book for anyone entering into their 30s Don't stand like you don't over the over the hill concept is nothing but a number. But he talked about how positivity people that are positive with 7.5 years longer. Other than those that are not, yeah. You know, you talk about the 80s. And I was just too young to really comprehend what was going on at the time I was born in 77. I'm not dating myself. I'm dating myself. But, you know, I'm gonna come around to this question. I recently listened to a video on a flight, actually from New York to California. It was Henry Kissinger and Ray Dalio on I think it was the Center for Strategic International Studies. And Henry Kissinger said something very interesting. He said, post World War Two, we own something like 55% of the world's economy. And that was never going to be maintained. He said, even with the best fiscal strategy, we were never going to be able to maintain that. But we could have maintained a dominance with regards to leadership capital across the world. And we're seeing that decline as well. But, you know, you said something before we started the podcasts that people thought in the 80s, that the US was a sunset economy, and that that power transition was going to go over to Japan or or the east or elsewhere. So you've, you've seen this, this, this ebb and flow right now. We are extremely worried. And I think we're primarily worried about China. And their, their overall GDP overtaking us? Well, they've already overtaken us, but really taken away the, the the advantage. Do you think this is just a driving force to increase innovation within the US? We're going to be okay, we've done this before. What What would you say to the people that are just, it's all doom and gloom right now.
Renée Mauborgne 11:34
So one thing I can say is, you can't change your world, but you can change yourself, and you can make your company that it can succeed no matter what. So you don't have to ride that whole boat of America. And if everyone made their boat of blue ocean or beyond disruption, the country picks up because of that, right? So I wouldn't look at that. But I do think part of the issue happened is when our book came out, and is out in 46 languages bestseller around the world. And that brought us around the world. And as we went around the world, it was very interesting, I would be in a country. And I would find that sometimes. Look, I love my country, but sometimes when I would talk with in our country, and I understand that we know a lot people would lean back and listen. And when I went to other countries, I noticed they always lean forward and listening. I noticed the note taking, I noticed the energy, the determination there. They weren't, couldn't they they wanted to create, I was in one event, once I believe it was in India, and they were saying, you know, all the big global brands at the time this is going back 15 years ago or so are in America that are known around the world. Korea has a few Samsung and LG, Japan has a few. But we really don't have that many global brands. And their aim was how are we in the space of the next 1015 years is going to start building our global brands. And what I want to say is, I think in a way sometimes like when you are very successful and we have been if you are not seeing what is happening around the world, and what is really going on you you get you get lazy in your game, actually. And I think in a way, so two points to your question. One point is I think Americans, not Americans, I shouldn't I don't want to make that distinction like that. broad strokes, broad strokes. I don't want to do that. But if you go around the world and see things, I think you realize, like you got to keep your game on edge, you really do. And I bet the second point, I want to say I think China is a real issue. And they're really working hard to build those companies. And but you don't have to ride the boat that everyone else's start building your business in a blue ocean way or beyond disruption as we'll talk about. And just as Home Depot and these companies we studied turn the tide of what America stood for. So we went from a sunset economy to this amazing growth economy. If we are all doing it individually, collectively, we add up and we start doing it and moving the entire country or whatever region you care about. And why I say that it's too easy when you say well they're not doing they're not doing but if we all do our individual part and don't worry about them but worry about what we are doing that is the best way to create that momentum to I'm not sure if I'm hearing you but to really lift everybody all boats rise with the tide. Sorry, had through the Yeah, no, no, no, that's that's great. But you know what I'm saying so it's there's no fat to complete the world is and the future is what we make it or don't make it. And so the question is, what are we making today? So we make that future a different future, right?
Michael Sarraille 14:57
Absolutely. And I'm not taking this down a political route. So when you guys went on the tour what? So first off? Could you guys even imagine how just the gravity that this book had? Or was, were you cautiously optimistic at first?
Renée Mauborgne 15:13
So you know, I tell you this when I can, honestly. So we had an a series of Harvard Business Review best selling articles. Yes. And we had been courted for a number of years from Harvard and other publishers to write a book. And we said, No, there's so many books written every year, but they're just one of many. And we thought, we still don't have a message, we think we can really make a difference. And so we wrote this. Now we were at the time, you know, you ask how to even say my last name. So when the book came out was 2005. You know, we were based in France, and can't pronounce my last name. My colleague was Asian. And there was never a best selling book in America, written by in business from professors based overseas with names you can't pronounce at a business school. The Elite knew our business school, but not the average person INSEAD. Yes. And so they said, Yeah, a lot of factors working against you guys. So people were, you know, saying, let's just see, and it took off. But let me say one thing that I really think, I think often people that write best selling books are companies that create great companies. They're really focused on creating like a good book. And they think the issue is important. They're creating a company they believe in serves an important mission. And they want it to be outstanding. That is their first objective. And everything else follows from that. It's like we didn't write a book to create a bestseller, we read a book to be proud of, and that we thought addressed an issue that we thought was important, whether the world judged that or not that was on the world. But so it's like, am I addressing something I think is important in matters. And number 2, I giving it my best to create that product that I think can deliver and communicate in a way that maybe that message assessable, and the rest of the world takes and they decide, they're your judges, not you. And I think in a great company, to you're thinking about, look, I see these issues, I see this problem, I think I can do it, I think I can add compelling the value this way for people to buy it, I think my price point needs to be here to make it accessible. Therefore, I have to figure out a way to drop my cost structure despite the conventional way. And if I do that, and I can make a random leap in value for buyers, and profit for myself, I'm going to leave it to the world. But that's going to be the path that's going to give me success. I don't think like we hope we're going to create this next fortune 500 company. But I think the companies that build it, they're so focused on creating this great product, this great service is low cost structure and making it work more than they hope they're gonna we all hope and dream for that big thing. But their focus isn't there. Because often when your focus is there, you're getting influenced by the media by other people, and you're losing the integrity of your idea and what you're trying to do. So you want to for lasting success. I'm talking about lasting success, you know, you you got to it's gotta be something
Michael Sarraille 18:20
authentic? Oh,
Renée Mauborgne 18:22
yeah, yeah. And it's coming from something you believe. Like, we really believed if you had been around Michigan to see what we saw. You knew you never wanted to see community like that. You knew that was in the future you wanted to help build. And like, you knew people personally who lost their jobs. And let me tell you, it's easy to say, Oh, our cannons go yet wait till you're on the side of the seat when you lost your job. Yeah, it's a very different reality. And so we thought this would make a difference. And that's how we do it. And I think the companies that do that, you know, in our book Beyond disruption, I was in one podcast, and someone was asking me, so do you think, you know, Steve Jobs shouldn't have said to his people, let's not disrupt this industry. I said, I actually don't believe he ever said that. I think he said, let's create a product so good. We make the competition irrelevant. They're not even bench markable to us, we do something so good. He wasn't setting out to disrupt and put people out of business. He was setting out to make a product that separates themselves so differently from everyone else, that are another plane. From a buyer's point of view. I'm on bench markable I'm so exceptional. That is what is driving them. So it's like yeah, that would be my kind of answer to what you're saying there.
Michael Sarraille 19:47
That's great answer. You know, when we talk about competition, if you become so obsessed with your competition, what they're doing then they actually that's an external factor that then comes into your decision making process and you're, you're, you're compromised,
Renée Mauborgne 19:59
and your competition is setting your agenda, not the marketplace. That's why every industry, every gas station looks the same. I benchmark you, you benchmark me, we'll both assume the other one knows what they're doing. When often they're both equally like, I don't know what to do the oceans read, let me look at what he's doing. So it's like the blind, leading the blind in a way. So you go into every auction house in the world, they're not only the same, and they keep hiring the same people. But they're on the same streets use the same advertisers the amount of convergence in an industry. And they play musical chairs in an industry. So they hire, you know, one company fires in the music industry, or they let go and they go to the other music industry or the book publishing industry, they circulate. So it's the same idea circulating around one another same ideas and conversations going up and down the escalators and elevators and accompany. And you want to get a fresh perspective, often, and this is very important to so you see what you didn't see before, you know, and you ask questions you didn't ask before and you say, you know, why not? How come? How could we do something differently? Like? Okay, so they've all done it. So who said so? So? What? Why, just because they've all done that? Why does that mean? It makes sense? I mean, think about it. We used to use bloodletting. We used to people's veins to help people. Thank God someone said, the practice that was that's, that's common. And that's fine that, you know, but thank God, someone said, Well, wait a minute, is that the right thing? Like maybe there's an alternative, just because that's what we've always doing doesn't mean that and so it's really important, you know, to have that, and that gets back to against, again, agency is very important. And to realize that our greatest resource is the imagination between us in our minds, and to use that and to not outsource that to others, you know, why do we believe that they necessarily know better than we do, we can learn from others, yes. But a lot of people don't sink within themselves to actually know what they think, you know, what, what they perceive. It's very important, actually,
Michael Sarraille 22:16
there's a lot of societal norms that are placed upon us in I'm not going to take this inward, but my parents came from very little, and they did very well for themselves. But the next step was to go to college and I came from a town where everyone goes to college because not necessarily that it's earned. It's just, that's you're going even if you have a 2.5 GPA, you're going to college because your parents can afford it. In for my brother and I, we just wanted to break the mold, we want to do something different.
Renée Mauborgne 22:45
But well, to your point, like you can look about and that's like an an all socio economic levels, like you can look at people in New York in the, you know, in the very wealthy area, where they're all fighting with their kids to get into the same schools. They want their kids to do the same type of activities, even though that might not be what's good for that kid. And even though that's actually creating great stress on the parents for the economics of it, for the wife to chauffeured around and actually, on the outside we look like everything is right but on the inside we have a you know, a child that feels they're not seeing they're not heard. They don't know what they're distinctively good at the father or the mother, the bird or bread earner is, you know, feel stressed and overtired. There's, there's a lot of stress. And so we always say like you can apply this thinking, Am I in a red ocean, in my career and in my life? And I'm just benchmarking everyone else to make sure I keep up with the Joneses. And can I not create a blue ocean for my life? What can I eliminate and reduce in what I do? That gives me aggravation adds to my cost or takes my time away? doesn't add value to let me stand out? And what could I really do to stand apart and create a profile for ourselves in our company, but in our personal lives as parents to create this blue ocean family where you have high value, lower cost that's super attractive, you know?
Michael Sarraille 24:12
Okay, so you've gotten to my question, where are we? I was going to take this so I was gonna tell the the listeners that when you read these books, albeit they may be business centric, that it's very safe to say, when are you talking right? The Blue Ocean Strategy for life?
Renée Mauborgne 24:27
Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting. We've done a few little like when we talk to people even do blue ocean for dating. Are you a red ocean player, you go into a bar the way you get the girl or the guy that biologic drinks off again, nobody's going into a bar. It's called out what? Tinder? Okay, I'm dating myself. Yeah, okay, good. But you know, you do the same as everyone else. And so, you know, and so the question is, what do you need to do to stand out and you know, really catch that person with low value and cost and high and high value stand? Now and lower costs. So we've been looking at so we haven't started that because this was this, but it's something we've been playing with, and we use in our lectures and talking, yes, but where what I see nowadays, sadly, is that, um, I see everyone so stressed and overworked. And people, you know, not having the time to have quality relationships sa in their personal adult relationships, even catching up with old friends sometimes, and they don't, or their spouse or their partner and also with their children. And everybody is sort of getting emotionally depleted, despite working all the time, and seemingly so busy, you know, and yet, so that's something that we have sort of been thinking about, because it's like, this can't be, we've got all these bright people. And everybody, you know, in beyond disruption, we're talking about even secretaries, there's greatness in every human being at every level. And, you know, we just have to see that in ourselves. And so, you know, we're talking about, we're thinking about that. But I guess, you know, because of your challenge about where the business economy is going, you know, we want we did our next book, because it came out of all the challenges to blue ocean, which is beyond disruption. How can we, you know, create these Marten, new markets that are where there aren't any before. And it's not based on necessarily technology. It says I have to be new to the world, but I actually carve out a space where nobody is playing and I can make business and society better meld together.
Michael Sarraille 26:34
So no, it's it makes total total sense. I think, you know, this is I always say that psychology defaults to lazy, it defaults to lazy, people will always follow the path of least resistance. Additionally, I think as Americans, we view everyone else's an enemy. In I don't want to mention his name, but a very high up Navy, Admiral, expert on China, you know, we need to stop looking at China as an enemy. And look at him as a near peer competitor. You said you traveled the the world after the book was released was that just an eye opener, just looking at the different cultures, their perspectives, their practices.
Renée Mauborgne 27:22
So what I would say is that it wasn't just after the book. So it's the last 20 years or something, you know, goingand what I would just say to that as well, as you know, that's where we are based at INSEAD in France at the time. And there are so many countries are near one another to begin with. So you naturally are seeing this. And you're suddenly being exposed. And in our school, INSEAD has students from all over the world, it's truly international. And you just are hearing these different level conversations and you seeing where people are coming from in different ways. And so I think it was just a general exposure. And, you know, and seeing what's happening and meeting people and noticing differences in audiences and the eagerness to learn, you know, even when I would be I would say, here's a commonality, small point just in interviewing people, when I would tend to interview companies that were doing well enough, but not outstanding. It was often kind of when you'd interview them kind of often, they're trying to tell you why they're not as average as you think. Why they're better than you think. And when I would meet and interview the companies in the blue ocean, they would tell me why they're not as good as you think, how they have to get better at their game. And I thought that's so interesting. And I remember one company, we were doing a workshop on blue ocean for them. And they said, Come on, and I said, I'm so tough, you're so tough, you demand so much. And I said, Well listen, you know. So they say, the guy said, you know, we're not as bad as you're telling us. And I wasn't telling they're bad, but I made them draw this graph, the strategy canvas, they look like everyone else. I said, Okay, you think you're not as bad as everyone else? They said, That's right. I said, Okay, let's use it as your tagline. You know, X company. We're not as bad. No, we're not as bad as everyone else. I said, you tell me how well that tagline sells. That's us. That's our branding your company as that and they're like, oh, yeah, that's not a good tagline. So then why do you want to live up to a standard? You guys, you're better than that. So give me your best. But let's start thinking differently, you know, and then they do it. And here's the most exciting thing. On either one of these. You find people come in. And you were telling me even like the military, we're trained a certain way. Certain people can adapt certain people can't. People are nervous. You're asking me to think differently. Some intuitive people can actually think differently. Steve Jobs. I think it was intuitive. I think some people just naturally you're saying nature or nurture sometimes sometimes Yeah. Uh,
Michael Sarraille 29:59
If I believe that then plus, yeah, yeah. But you could also I mean, we'd have a higher success rate, if within the education system, we didn't nurture this, we almost were rewarded failure as and I learned that one from Bill Campbell. Yeah. He's like, I made it to practice and Intuit to reward failure, not for lack of trying, but when they took a calculated risk, yeah, they did. They did their best, but you made smart calls, it just didn't work out in their favor.
Renée Mauborgne 30:24
So what I want to say there is that what we found, that's why we work both of our books, there are three books that really provide like, processes and some tools to get you there. So this is the nurture over nature, it can get you amazing places. Yeah, amazing places. But that doesn't. That doesn't state that some people like Elon Musk is certainly a certain talents. That, you know, he's blessed with certain things to see the world. That is just like some people. You know, I may be wrong here. But they said like John McEnroe, he just was like, even without practicing to level, some people, he just was, he just was like, had some talent that was different than others, you know. And so both are true. But you what I want to say is when we work with people, they would come in the first workshop know like, Oh, my God, think differently, get out of the red ocean, that scary, status quo is better. I'm safe. I'm that. And then you know, you work with them step by step tool by tool. Say, Okay, let's just see how we look. Are we like everyone else? Yeah, we are. Can we look at what the pain points are in the industry? And if we don't find any, let's just stop. So I have an exit. Okay, pain points. So let me ask you think if we address some of those pain points, we'd start to shift our curve from the red to the blue. Yeah, maybe? Do you think it's worthwhile to find out? Who are all the people that if we change that non-customers, they might want to buy from us? You think it's worthwhile to take another step? I'm not telling them, I'm asking them to tell me. You tell me looking at what we're doing together. And by the way, we don't find other people. It's just up the process, you have an exit. Worth one more step or not you guys, because what we're talking about is growth opportunities, income ability to get promoted, you want to take a step or not, because we can call it quits right now, because, uh, you don't want to go on the field on this March. I can, I can drive as much as I want, but I'm not gonna get anywhere with you. You'll find a way to get around it, undermine it. This is so many clever ways, right? So are you ready to step up or not? We can add one more step. Now what am I doing? There every step they're taking, they're learning confidence isn't somebody saying you're the best? No way. That's fake confidence. You get that one weekend retreat, you're pumped, then you go back to office four days later, insecurity comes over you. It's achieved by what you do, what you learn what you master and your capabilities. What we find at the end. I tell people, This is the most heartwarming thing is people say, I never knew my team was that good. I never knew my colleague was that good. I never knew I was that good. And it's like, it is such a beautiful moment. And I tell you, I always believe people don't see. People don't know how good they are actually, I really believe that how capable they are. You know, they've been conditioned. It's like, No, you're all a warrior inside you. You know, it's beautiful.
Michael Sarraille 33:28
I see the tears in your eyes. And I know you and Chan, you know, I do keynote speaking for a living. It's a good thing financially. But there's nothing better than receiving a note. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, especially the one six months after the engagement. That's, that's powerful. But so the impact is, is phenomenal, not only for the organization, but the individuals as well.
Renée Mauborgne 33:53
You know, we tell people like don't do it for the organization, do it for yourself. If you're not worth more yourself and the way you think, and the way you perceive this, because maybe you're not gonna stay at that company ever, to open your own perspective, then we failed you like, so. You know, Now, mind you now, you know, we're writing this book here. And this has been a long journey. So it's not this recent things. But yeah, I'm just this is sort of some of the human dynamics, our book, blue ocean shift. The second one is based on you know, whether it's governments or nonprofits or companies, some that came to us and work with us some that work with people that we know, some that we just read about, and then we'd call them up and they said they applied blue ocean. We said, what works, what failed, what didn't? And then that book documents companies that and individuals and nonprofits and governments that put these ideas in practice and the you know, and what comes out of that? What comes out of that Mike
Michael Sarraille 34:57
so if I could wave a wand a Get you guys into the Pentagon and back in the Pentagon and back in the Pentagon, then every service, DOD needs to think differently. They need to think differently. That that is so encouraging to to hear. But a lot of companies don't take that step organizations, doesn't matter if you're in business to bring people like you in just to, to view in a different perspective, utilize it, it sounds like you use a push pull method a little bit, to get the most out of them. I mean, there there seems to be a trend where leadership development or strategy development is on a decline in terms of bringing outside parties in, that's what I found.
Renée Mauborgne 35:43
Well, so we wrote our book so that you don't need us actually. So in the beginning, you know, companies when blue ocean came out, which was a series of Harvard articles, before that, were to going back to 1997 was the first one. So we were working with companies even then to write the first book. So now I'm really dating myself. You mean, you might 1999 71? Does this review article on this value innovation on that became part of the Blue Ocean Strategy? Way back? Right. So and this is when we're working with companies, but our aim was, that's why we have like processes in blue ocean strategy. And then beyond disruption, how do you in a conversation with yourself or with your team, take these ideas do not only get inspired, but let us show you step by step, how you can look at your market, here's a simple one page tool, one page. So whether you have a high school degree, or you went to the top schools, you're all equally on the same page. And I can start to draw this simple picture. So they're all one page, simple analytics, that levels the playing field for everybody. And you can start taking a step by step so we actually try to write them. So you don't need us. And you can have that quiet conversation yourself and with your team, and work on these ideas. And maybe you don't get 100% to the finish line. But let me tell you, very few people get 100% to the finish line the first time, you know like you ride a bike, you don't start riding that bike right away, right, you start you get on the bike, you trip a little bit you get on the bike, you keep. And then and then you start going, but if each time I'm going a little bit further, and I'm going from the red to the more blue, I'm going from disruption to beyond disruption, the trajectory of my life is changing the trajectory of my companies, opportunity is changing. And that's really profound. So yeah, you know, life is a bumpy road, actually, you know, you can look at all of our success today. You can look at all these companies Bernie was telling you many times in his podcast with Bernie Marcus, they face difficult junctures, we all do. I mean, Apple almost went out of business, too, right? And it's, the question is, so that's why you have to be able to we say, take a punch, get me getting knocked down, but you stand up, you can have your tear, or whatever it is, and you deserve that. It's not easy. We're human beings. And that applies to everybody. But you got to get back in and, and, you know, keep marching forward on that.
Michael Sarraille 38:16
You've heard the Sylvester Stallone, quote from Rocky five, for basically, life's going to hit you, it's going to knock you down. But it's not how hard you can hit. It's how many punches you can take and keep moving forward. It's It's Rocky, you know, the fact that it's such a just profound statement, and I'll send it to you, I'll send you the clip. It's just like I sent it to my son, I sent it to my daughter. I'm like this literally. From a punch drunk boxer, the character could not be more more on point. Let me ask you, because you said something about the market, this dictates and most CEOs, most executives are we're opinionated. We've got strong opinions. We're strong willed. But to what degree does self reflection humility, play into success? Because when I come up with a concept, and I say, hey, I want to sell this product or this service, it's very hard for me to get out of my head and say, it doesn't matter what I want, ultimately, the market is going to dictate what they want. Do you find that the attributes of humility and you know really play into, you know, the success of a company to put their opinions aside, listen to the market, and then do what the market is requesting more of?
Renée Mauborgne 39:35
Well, no, not exactly. Because the market we have trained markets what to expect, and they tell us give me more for less of the same thing. So they're not going to come and tell you when you're a little hardware store, give me Home Depot that has electricians working on the floor that can teach me are not going to tell you that but I think really critically is asking great listeners, great learners, but they're Great observers of how things are using and they're asking themselves as well, who cares besides me about this? Who faces this frustration besides me? pain points. So they are not only it's about me. So you know, you might be an idiosyncratic individual, or some weird thing bothers you distinctively, that no one else even registers, but you're just a weirdo. You know, you're strange. And so you're like that, but it doesn't mean there's gonna be a market. So the real question you got to ask is, you know, who cares besides me? And then you want to be looking at, you know, what is that leap in value I'm providing there, right? So that is critical. So I would say I'm not sure all of them exactly have humility all the time. Everyone is different. There's all different takes on people. Yes. So there's no one stereotype just like there's no one company type. But I would say that they're eager learners. I would say that they have a lot of, you know, we always say, Never outsource your eyes. A lot of people do all these fancy studies. But outsourcing is an art. And they never like unlike okay, go to a supermarket five o'clock, why are two registers open, and five are shut. And there is a long line of people and like, who's running the ship here? Because this doesn't make sense to me. I don't care. I'm a manager, I'm the back get on that frontline. And you get a cashier open. And you do that, but they're not. Management is not looking at what's going on Bernie Marcus was in the store. He was in the store. He was visiting, he saw what was going on. I'm not going to name airlines, but I would fly some. And I was saying like, this is first class. Have you ever wrote written these airlines? Because if you did, like, where are you? Like, you're you're not looking out? You don't see what's going on? So you know, that's part of that. Yeah.
Michael Sarraille 41:54
So let me let me make an observation. I'd be interested in your opinion, you've traveled the world. Does that make sense?
Renée Mauborgne 42:00
Let me not say I'm not so versus the average person, perhaps your worldly. But but but let me put that in context. There are many, many more people that have traveled more than I have. And there are many, many areas that I haven't been to. So I don't want to portray myself as that. But I would have been privileged to see a little bit more than the average person that's a blessing I've had.
Michael Sarraille 42:20
And that's that's your humility coming up, you've probably been more countries than I have. Where I was going with that is sometimes I'm gonna use Japan. It is a service oriented, like culture. I've never seen services such a high level and it seems like you know, you know, I remember my dad saying like the days of Pan Am are gone. It again, I can't remember find Pan Am. But I guess the surface was was top notch. It seems like in America, and I'm not trying to pick on America, that service has declined. Because some companies are so big, where I'm not going to name a company. But let's just say in the online space, where I call the help desk, and I'm on the I've got to call multiple times, because no one's picking up or the airlines. Because one, it's almost to the point well, do you want to fly? Be be lucky you're you've got a seat in economy, and that you're going from New York to San Francisco. Here's your one drink. And I do remember young that service was at a much higher level is it? And I understand cutting cost structure. Something's got to give. And it's better to have the airlines operating the not operating at all and creating monopolies. But yeah, I'd be interested in your opinion having having traveled the world with regards to service in the US.
Renée Mauborgne 43:38
So every company is different. But if you asked me, Can we do better often? 100% Yeah. And we can 100% give our people more pride. So they want to deliver and paint a picture of what excellence actually looks like. And I sometimes I think we need to paint that picture. And what that is, I think, yes, we can do better, we can do better. And we should do better, because we're capable of doing better. Don't cheat, don't cheat yourself in life, you know, you're capable of that. Yeah.
Michael Sarraille 44:18
Well, that's the definition of excellence, the pursuit of continual improvement, with no finite destination.
Renée Mauborgne 44:27
And I think you know, no matter what you do, and I don't care if it's cleaning a toilet, do it well, if you can do the job. And believe me, when you do things well, someone above you sees that. It maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but you get recognized. And that's how opportunities open up. And so you know, I've always looked at it. You know, we We all started different positions in life, different backgrounds. But I just think that dignity is doing the best at what you're doing where you are that moment. And if you keep doing that, that's how things open up. And yeah, I think that's important. I really do. I think it's important.
Michael Sarraille 45:23
We had a phrase in the military and, you know, leave the place better than you found it. Yeah. And, you know, a great book, do you ever read our legacy about the New Zealand All Blacks? Oh, you've got to pick this up the 15 principles of the New Zealand, you know, all blacks, which rugby, not really an American sport, but they're top notch. And basically, they said, hey, no one's above, pushing the broom. And so you'd see some of the world's best rugby players with a broom in the locker room pushing it, but they always said, leave the place better than you found it. pride for me goes a long way. In I'm not prideful enough, where I wouldn't push a broom to support my family, if that's what it took. Yeah.
Renée Mauborgne 46:02
Yeah, I think that is really critical. Now, you know, our second this new book that we came out with beyond disruption, you're saying about structure? What you find now is that disruption became and Mike we're talking about it before we started. At the same time blue ocean in the field of strategy was growing disruption was growing in the field of innovation. And so it became, you know, a rallying cry. And so, you know, people came to us in the field of blue ocean, they said, well, Blue Ocean is creating these new markets, isn't that creating is innovating. So how is blue ocean different from disruption? How is it different? Or is it just different terminologies coming from two different fields? And we found out No, it's not, you know, I said, actually, when we go back and look at our data, and we've been looking at it for a long time, even from blue ocean, we found that, you know, disruption is when you look at an existing industry, with the aim to take it down. And we found out that blueish has, you know, you look across industries, but we found out, wow, here were all these companies and industries being created outside of existing industries, where I am not displacing anybody. And so business and society are actually better moving together in lockstep. And so, you know, executives would push back and they'd say, Well, wait a minute, you know, I, you know, I want to disruption is what we know. And I say, okay, that's one way, we're not undermining that. But just think what you're doing like you want to disrupt an existing industry. So do you think all those players are just going to say, yes, please come on in and take the Bologna off my bread? You're very welcome. No, of course not. What are they going to do? They're going to fight you, right? And if I'm an established company, and I know that I'm not a startup startup, it's a little easier. But if I'm an established company, and I'm going to disrupt another industry, what I know is I'm going up against other big players, they're serious, I'm serious. Or if you're telling me as a boss, disrupt myself, now that's another story. Because it's like disrupt, or you know, disrupt yourself or get disrupted. You start telling your own company, almost, yeah. Cuz you're creating a war of attrition and a lot of in yourself or a Pyrrhic victory. Yeah. And then you ask yourself, how your employees are going to be motivated in that mission? Because you're asking them essentially, you know, so it's politically and emotionally, very, very hard to people would say, you know, how come Kodak didn't respond to digital photography, they're the ones that created it. That's very easy from the outside to look in. But when you're on the inside, and all of your r&d, all of your people, your colleagues who know you respect your community is based on that. It's really hard to start to do that. So like in beyond disruption, we talk about how when Konar airlines after, you know, the world wars, they were the number one ocean liner, bringing people back and forth across the Atlantic, and then boom, jet travel is discovered. It's fast, it's convenient, it's flexible, and it starts going back and forth, and swap very rapidly. It starts taking all the travel in the ocean liners, all the other. So Kumar says it was a number one player, and it says, it tried to disrupt back, you disrupt me, I disrupt you, goes in and buys another airline. It says, Okay, I'm going to buy and they condemned it Quiner Eagle, if you can go back and forth on air, so can I and I've got the resources to buy into the game. The only problem is the people in the game said we don't want you entering. There's not we don't want you in this beautiful, lucrative ocean. They pushed back they got the license revoked for them to fly the transatlantic flight. So now here's Conor, what am I going to do? I'm getting disrupted. Every day. My the people going back and forth on the ocean liner are disappearing overnight. I tried to disrupt back. They cut me off right away. Just squash me like a bug. Now what I'm doing and so instead they said, Well, wait a minute. I got to think differently and say, Why do I need to disrupt Why can't I start doing something non disruptive. They said, What do we use an ocean liner for? To get from point A to B. So instead of going from point A to B, why can't we use it that the value of the ocean liner is the journey itself? We add all this entertainment, all this luxury, and we bring people to Little different cities that they normally didn't do. Because in those days, people weren't doing international travel, really. You had to be certain classes that we can take them to the Caribbean, different places. Why don't we start doing this? And so they created the cruise industry. You know, today, I think it brings in 30 billion a year, it's impacted millions and created jobs. And now as part of Carnival Cruise, but it's the only ocean liner that succeeded. But what they said is, why don't we do something differently? Why do we have to disrupt? Can we create an industry where there wasn't any, and I just, you can stop me, but I wanted to give you, I'll give you another one, it's really telling post offices around the world are getting decimated. They're often just a cost structure for national governments. Right? And you look at France, so France had that challenge, because I think the postal letters and envelopes has been down 50% It's continues to decline. We use email, we use text, or we use FedEx and UPS when we have something physical, right. So the question for them is where we do because there's big civil servant employees. So they know they can't compete this way. So they started looking at they found out Wow, big problem in not addressed in society is that average French person, actually, they leave their small towns, we talked about this, or I talked about with my taxi driver extra, my Uber driver. And the kids are lived these busy, hectic, frantic lives, when they grew up in professional, they live in Paris, they live around the world. And they never start to visit their parents anymore. They just don't have time, I would love to come. But there is a soccer match, I'd love to come but there is this thing. And there's all this loneliness. And they found out in France, the second most trusted individual, besides the baker that they buy bread from all the time, is supposed to work or in their town. So they started this program called V summit PowerPoint, which is watching over my old parents, and they had it that you could sign up and you could pay for 40 euros a month, that the post office person doesn't only drop the mail off, but as a real conversation with the your parent, the older person, and they find out like how are you doing? You have a problem in your home? Is there something needs to be repaired? What's it like? How are the grandkids and they have this communication? And then on an app, they report what they found? They tell the kid by the way, we talked with them? And do you need us to it's actually even developed? Do you need us to go get you something in town or whatever. Again, totally non disruptive, but addressing this real problem that's actually not only in France, but in so many areas of the world. Right? And so we have this sadness, where actually as you get older, you feel unseen. And even you know, with the breakdown of families and stuff, and everyone living far away and busy and working around the clock. They don't get together with it used to be and it's a beautiful opportunity they're creating again, did I disrupt anyone? No. And what am I doing in both cases with carnival? I leveraged my existing assets and I'm nondisruptive put with a post off again I'm leveraging my net not and my existing assets and people often say to me, Renee, you guys are impossible you first push this blue ocean now you guys are pushing us non disruptive. And we're like yeah, and but by the way, when you start when you open your imagination space to discover, you know, problems that exist that we take for granted that you can solve outside of an industry or these opportunities you'll find often you can leverage a lot of what you have there not far away like you think they're right next was I mean we give the beautiful example and beyond disruption of the IPL Indian Premier cricket League, the the I think it's the wealthiest sports franchise in the world. They were sitting on the cricket industry in in India. But you know, cricket matches they go for five days or or one full day Test cricket or ODI. And while Indians are passionate they call cricket their religion. They very few people can watch a five day match. Because it's meant to actually test your spiritual strength to indoor five days, not only your physicalness and then they they create this non disruptive opportunity to say let's create a whole new market outside of cricket that brings dancing in lights. Let's shorten it and just do it in three hours instead of five days. And they created the number one franchise never took away from Cricut whole new marketplace, right? Leveraging what they had These are the opportunities that we're not tapping that we could. And guess what? I don't have to take you on? Why should I think it's Macho? I'm going to become a king, because I'm gonna beat up people like, Why do I, if I can become a king or a queen and all this money without punching somebody with a lot effort? Why would I not do that? Why do I somehow feel I have to take someone down to create something? That's like, there's no wisdom in that. I mean, that's not to say that there aren't industries that need to be disrupted. But wow, if I can do that without taking them down. There is so much better, like, you know, yeah, so I was gonna ask,
Michael Sarraille 55:44
Why do I feel it's like human nature to in order to create something new, I've got to destroy something of old.
Renée Mauborgne 55:51
Okay, so there's history to that. But Mike, it also comes back to you, and I don't think we're on tape on that, or beginning conversation when I told you business and everything comes from, you know, military strategy initially, because military came way, way, way before business became modern style management was derived from so Chief Executive Officer structure. Yeah, yeah, corporate staff, all these words, even you know, so what happens is we absorbed and took in all of that we made adaptations. But the key constraining factor of war is limited land, that's it took for me to grow as a continent, I have to take land from you. And when we moved into business, we never realized that there that constraint doesn't exist, business land is unendingly expanding, right. And so if you look at the North American Industry Classification System, in the last 100 years, the amount of industries and that have been created has expanded exponentially. Because we're only limited by our imagination, we're not limited by physical strain. But somehow we have pulled that assumption into business, and like, kneecapped ourselves and accepted it. And the time has come to say, actually, we don't need to do that we don't need to do bloodletting anymore. That's one way. But there is another way. And it's not like in blue ocean. Competing matters. We're not saying it doesn't, you need to know how to compete. Even when you create a blue ocean, other people come in, you need to know how to punch, you need to know how to occupy and dominate your, your blue ocean. So we're not saying that disruption matters in certain industries. They're asleep at the wheel. They're not providing good service, you're mentioning some. And so you are saying, come in and disrupt me you're inviting people to disrupt yourself, right? So you want to ask yourself, Am I inviting people? To disrupt me? That is the best question few people ask themselves. Yeah, so am I doing and by the way, the best defense to not get invited is if I'm creating a blue ocean, because if I'm good, now you think to myself, how hard is it going to be to dislodge them? I have to be not 1% Better to dislodge a blue ocean player like Apple or an Amazon or somebody, I have to be a magnitude of order better to dislodge them? Because why would I skip from you to me? Right? That's harder. So that's one thing. But then the other opportunity is why can I start thinking of non disruptive opportunities, where I don't have to take someone on? So you know, in your Bernie Marcus interview, which I was listening to us like these are alive in my mind. He was talking about things for post traumatic stress disorder that vets have not there hasn't been a solution. He's coming up with something there. And the question becomes, let's think more creatively for vets coming out for their jobs, for their mental health for other things. There are all these existing problems we've taken for granted, this is what happens. And can we not thinking about like creating opportunities for them or eradicating that? Those are all non disruptive things. And what we find in life is so many things we take for granted as the way they are is though the way it must and will continue to be until someone steps up and says, yeah, no, I read the status quo, and I refuse to accept it. I'm going to think differently. And that's what this is saying, disrupt more, so we're not undermining it. But we're saying look, why disrupt when you don't have to, there's an alternative path. And guess what I don't have to you may see macho to destroy somebody. But you better remember on the other end are people that have their jobs have their livelihoods. There's people that go home to their kids. And if I can create these new industries, new jobs, like eSports is a non disruptive industry. If I can create that and create jobs and you know, I can recruit people to say, You know what, we're not in business to put other people out of business. We're in business to create what wasn't existing before and we're in business to help business and society move together and not in the way we spend money. I'm not asking us to be a charity and don't Ain't money, but in the very way we make money, right? So I'm going to find, and that's what's the beauty of non disruptive creation and blew up beyond disruption is, a lot of times there's pushback, like saying, Don't tell me. That's why it used to be all about shareholder primacy. They're saying like, don't, that's why they just used to do corporate social responsibility. It's a cost function in a company. And when money gets tight, what do I do that tends to we send to give a little bit less money, that's natural, we have to write because we need to survive. But with the power beyond disruption is I'm able to pursue my economic gains in a way that doesn't hurt others. And in doing so better align business and society. But again, in the way I make money, not in the way I spend money. So the dual mandate of economic and social tends to move together, as opposed to be at odds and a trade off there. That's what excites us.
Michael Sarraille 1:00:57
So in one sense, the excitement, one, I sense the, there is a positive nature to the message of the book. And let me say this, as you describe it, it's less strategy and it's more mindset.
Renée Mauborgne 1:01:10
Well, now, let me let me tell you two things, you're hitting number one, bingo, baby, you just really hit it. Most of whether it's red ocean disruption is zero sum, my gain is your loss. Yes. And actually, beyond disruption is positive sum, I can win without making anyone worse off. So bingo, you hit it exactly. But also you have to understand and, and and push back on me, but what we found is most people forget, but it is safer to be over in the zero sum game. So you need a mindset, but you need a process and tools to help the average person get there. So because if you don't have that, uh, maybe I'm the intuitive person that can do that. But my question is always, how can I do codify do codify what people that do intuitively and look at the pattern, see what they do, and create a process to help the the what a person thinks is the average person become extraordinary and see how they can do it, too. And that is why you know, you need so in the second part of our book, we said, okay, there is not only this idea, we can go beyond disruption to non disruptive creation. But guess what? It doesn't have to be an aspiration. There's actually we can give you some basic tools and frameworks. How do you identify the assumptions we take for granted? Find out you know, what we're assuming and how we can flip them and when you start going through like you start to see like, we have one company we talk about it's actually INSEAD MBAs came from our school. They thought so INSEAD the top top business schools in the top 10. Top five often top one? Yes. Okay, depending on the survey globally. And the students all felt but it's international, very international. We're not, you know, the students come from, I don't want to misquote because I don't know. But an array of an array of countries unbelievable, like, unbelievable. And they all thought that the hard task was getting in the school. But they found out that was an easy task for the ones that got in and the hard part was getting the money to fund it. And what you find is that when you want to get a loan, because they're very expensive, these schools, top schools for advanced education to go alone, domestic companies don't want to fund international education because your flight risk, maybe you never come back. But then I go to France, where our campus was initially found and I want to get a loan. I got accepted to this number one school, I'm bright, and they say okay, so can we your local credit history, your local job? Well, actually, I worked for two years in America. We don't We can't verify that. So tell me now your local credit history. Well, actually, as I said, I was American and have that. So your local cosigner who's got a lot of money to back you. I don't know that either. Oh, so I'm so sorry. You can't have it. So the guy Cameron Stevens and his colleagues, they had to defer enrollment to to raise the money to be able to get into the school they got in when they got there and they talk with everybody. They lean into the problem. They don't just say oh, it's a problem. Life Sucks this they lean into it very important. Often we see a problem we see a pothole we go no, they say we went but why is that pothole no fix right. And so they lean into it and they start talking about it. Wow. There's a real problem that opportunity opportunity. Now people say well wait a minute. If the big global banking industry didn't do it, they got pushed back. How can you do that? How can you do it so then they start saying okay, well what are the assumptions are making so they made the assumption you need local this local this for this and they said, Well, wait a minute. If we got into this tufts top school, what is the what are the Economics when we graduate, what's the average salary we make? Really high? Wow. So we're guaranteed high money. And then they said, How many of us, given what we all did to get here and get this high salary are likely to be willing to take a risk to jeopardize our credit by not paying our loan? How much do we throw away everything to get that mark on us? Actually, we're going to be the most conscientious at all, we got so much, you know, get em skin in the game. And they said, What did it take for us to even get here, we had to be top in our grades, meaning we're dependable. We show up we execute. We were often like leaders in our club or something. Actually, we have the least risk of anybody. We're not risky, we're the least risk. And they won't even look at us. And they say, Well, wait a minute. If that's the case, and I rank them not based on their past performance, but their future performance. And I know for a fact, what the average income is what the average job is, because all the schools have that. Exactly. Can I not get the money that way? They flipped everything to create, you know, I think the it's called prodigy, finance, and there's one called M. M. M. M, finance and power and power sorry, in America, they're both from INSEAD. And, you know, the last time now, I haven't looked at it recently. And we did a case with them on it. But they got it, you know, a billion dollar debt financing for the students. I mean, they're growing tremendously. But this tight industry, just so we, we start to give you tools so you can uncover the assumptions we're making, that we don't know, an industry is making. So when you say there's no strategy, actually, you got to get systematic to tell you, how can I like, unroll that and get down to the nuts and bolts so I can see what's been blocking that? And, you know, analyze that, and get much more systematic, because they'll always be risk. But how do I, Mike, do you risk that? Because that's my goal, right, de risking what I'm doing. And so that's what I need. And to go to one last point, I know I'm going on, I get so excited. It's beautiful, keep going. But the last part of the so we have three steps for beyond disruption. And the first part is how do you identify these opportunities? Right, and assess them. Number two, is how do you find the way to unlock them? And that means that's an assumption implication table, I uncovered the assumptions we don't know we're making and what the implication is, so I can flip them. But then the third step is how do I realize that this very important, because we're really talking about one thing is so confidence and competence as leadership, you're hitting on it really matter. But the other thing is, and we were talking about it you with us beforehand, Mike is resourcefulness. Resource resourcefulness are not the resources that you have that you own or control, but those that you can leverage if you start to think differently about resources, and so we we articulate, like, what are all the resourcefulness areas you can start thinking of, to be able to deliver on these opportunities in a very low cost way and fast, and often better than if you use your own full resources. And this is the exciting thing for a startup or any company today in these resource constrained environment is how do I do things in a very so like, I go to Square Reader, so square a billion dollar company, they did non disruptive, right? They looked at the whole credit card industry, everyone took for granted, including all of us that now of course, as an individual, I can't accept a credit card, why should I not a big company, the little micro business guy starting out? Of course, I can step that's one of the things that's a tough part about when you're little, those benefits come to the big guys, you know, how many things do we take for granted that a little guy doesn't have access to? And you know, Jim McKelvey, he has a story so glass, and he found out he lost a sale, because he couldn't accept a credit card payment. And he found out how many people could benefit him and Jack Dorsey. And so they created the Square Reader. Because it wasn't attacking the existing industry, then medium, large, NCR, all these big people with all the money under the radar under the radar didn't touch them. So they created this billion dollar business under the whole radar screen. But now how do you execute on that? Right? So they had the idea? Okay, we use a phone for everything, the news, the email, whatever, if take a photo, why can't we use this device? Instead of creating a device, I leverage what exists? Now they start thinking about okay, do The only way that people have ever been able to use that is they use the dock where you charge your thing. It's a guy with Apple, if we did that they want a long, we have to negotiate all these tight terms and conditions with them. We have to pay some of the revenue all of this. And then they said, Well, wait a minute. What if we all assume the duck, Bluetooth? What if we use the Jack? Oh, the jack nobody owns. If I could make it work with the jack, I don't have to do any of that due diligence with Apple, I don't have to owe them any money. And by the way, if I do it with Apple, the jack is also in the Android. I can get them all with one shot. So now my question becomes, how can I not leverage all of their resources and capabilities and excellent have the Android effectively and have apple that have the smartphones as the key modem and use the jack? Now what does it take? Does that mean it was initially obvious and easy. Jim McKelvey has a fantastic book on the innovation stack to do that, but now they start saying okay, but But would that allow us to drop our cost structure like this? And leverage all that excellence? Yeah. So is that worthwhile? Yeah, let's play and see how we can make that happen. They were the first company in the world to use a jack. And this is like one area of resourcefulness. Can you imagine? And so that's what the second part realizing it's giving you. And this is where we need strategy. We think, Okay, I'm resourceful. You think only one area of resourcefulness So, and then you don't think about all these other resourcefulness channels and tell my team, okay, you three think this or if you're only alone, you're an individual, you say, Okay, the next three days, I want to think about this for resourcefulness for what I'm doing this category that channel, Renee lay out. The next three days, I'm gonna see here, I'm gonna look here. And I'm going to knock over one by one. So I make sure my team had a 360 Look at that. And that's because otherwise, you know, you tell your team get resourceful. And they're like, Okay, what does that mean? What does that mean? And then and then you're not helping them. So as a leader, we don't have to provide the answers. But we do need to provide some tools to mechanism process so that they know how to find these things. That's critical. And eventually it becomes intuitive to us, you know, we started with Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so that's what beyond disruption tried to do. And like Square Reader is one of them. Go Pro is one of them in sports enthusiast. It went under the radar screen for all the camera companies. And these are the types of non eSports the non disruptive where no one touches you, you're just busy working on it. resourcefulness. And the book tries to show you how you can do it. And like, yeah, yeah, that's why it's about me.
Michael Sarraille 1:12:48
It's, it's well, well done. Again, kudos to yourself and Chan. It comes out this, this, what's the exhibit, so it comes out?
Renée Mauborgne 1:12:58
May 2. So thank you very much for saying that. And, you know, I just have to give a shout out to my colleague, Chen Kim, you know, we've been partners this long journey. I'm so thankful. I'm not I could not be here without him. I hope he thinks the same way. But you know, in the military, when you have a really strong team, you mutually respect one another, you know, you can count on one another. And it is so powerful, and you make each other better in your own way doesn't mean you're objectively better from anyone else's. But from wherever you are in life, you're getting better, and you hear able to be tough on each other to an honest. It's so critical. And so I just Yeah, I just Yeah, so it's Chad Kim and me behind these ideas. And it's really, one of my greatest blessings in my life, is to have had the benefit of that team and that friendship. So I found, I think I've said this before.
Michael Sarraille 1:13:54
So triple seven, we, we end up on Fox and Friends. I'm more happy for the guys that are around me. In the team. I identify like, team is in my DNA. Three weeks later on back on Fox and Friends for the book that we wrote the everyday warrior. And I'm sitting in my hotel room in New York. My wife's like, Oh, that was great. Yeah. I'm like, I just something doesn't feel right. And I'm like, let me just get off the phone. And so I call back in now and I'm like, I realize it. Like I don't have my team around me. Like this is meaningless. So I'm glad that change your iron. And you know good old proverbs quote, I'm dropping so iron is. So it's one person sharpens another. And I think everyone needs that everyone needs a tribe. Yeah, we have the right people have the right people,
Renée Mauborgne 1:14:35
you know, and you know, for us philosophically, but the ability, you know, and I go back to that, you know, we don't admire and I use this out of context that I mean greatness, but you don't admire greatness because it's easy to admire, because it's hard. And so what I mean is like we both have a very strong propensity for variant for hard work. Yes. To redo something the 100th time when you're absolutely exhausted because you just don't think you've hit the bar that you wanted, like the manuscript. Yeah. Or but it's not only the manuscript, it's everything in life. Right? Yeah. So you're willing to go back because there comes a point in anything, you're just tired. But you have to say, in spite of that, I'm gonna step back in, and you might need to take a little break. But you know, you sit back in perseverance and, you know, you mentioned that positive some viewpoint. You know, we believe in we call grounded optimists. It's like you're grounded, you see reality. But you always believe in the ability to shape our future and not do that. And I think if you start in your own scope, your own sphere, don't worry about someone else yourself. And if everyone did, that, we'd all be marching towards a much brighter future together.
Michael Sarraille 1:15:49
I love that term. grounded. optimist. Yeah. Versus what I call unearned positivity. Yeah. When you step into the locker room, you're down by 50. You know, like, Hey, guys, we're still at it. No, we're not let's be, let's be grounded optimists here. What can we do to turn this around? I love this strategy. I love the mindset. I think more people, as you said, when you see a problem, you see opportunity. A strong mindset doesn't insulate you from hardship, from tragedy or anything else. But it does arm you to respond or react in a positive way. And I think we need more of that right now. This I'm just interested for the US on an international scale. Because it seems like every time China does something, we've got to go head to head, rather than saying, no, just go the indirect route, find a new blue ocean, and go that direction. And I think that would be a much more positive outlook for a lot of us. And I'm not picking on China. I would just like to see government institute a lot of the framework that you and Jan have designed. This could be an even more amazing country, and we've got the best country in the world, we've got a share of problems. But it's pretty damn amazing. And that's because of people like you, and Chan and everyone who contributes in some way.
Renée Mauborgne 1:17:06
Well, I want to say, Mike, it's been my privilege and honor to be here with you. I love your energy, your excitement, your all of that. And so you know, on behalf of Chan and me just thank you so much for entertaining us.
Michael Sarraille 1:17:19
So there are in we're gonna blast this out on LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn. That's my that's my playground. I live will and Michelle handle Instagram, in the army, because I don't get very open on Instagram. And remember, this is all new to me. Like we couldn't have social media. Like five years ago, I couldn't have social media within the the SEAL teams. It was frowned upon. But if a company wants to bring you in, where can they best find you? Is it blue ocean? strategy.com.
Renée Mauborgne 1:17:46
You can go to Blue Ocean Strategy.com thank you so much. And that would be the main place for everything. Yeah. Okay.
Michael Sarraille 1:17:52
So please, if you're for those that are running companies, organizations, it's part just going through the process, because very few companies do it. And when you ask yourself amazing questions, I think great leaders are determined by the questions. They ask the quality of the questions. I think people live amazing lives by the quality of the questions they reflect on. Yeah, so please reach out blue ocean strategy.com. But you're not off the hot seat yet. So Renee, we end this with really two questions. The first one is, you've lived a good life you've traveled? You've worked with a lot of businesses, a lot of organizations, you've seen some good leaders, you've seen some bad leaders. You've seen high performers, you've seen low performers. For you. What are what are your top three sort of tenants? There's there's keys to success that have led to a high probability of success for you.
Renée Mauborgne 1:18:45
I think you said hard work. I'm not going to say never giving up I think he's ever given up never giving up as important. And that was your old man that? Yeah, that is to the to me. But it's common to both Janome I think hard work is common to them. A drive to want to make a difference. Want to make a difference? I think there's probably many qualities, but I think they're unending learners. No matter what stage they are. They're always learning. They're always learning. They're seeking to learn all the time to get better. Yeah, I think that would be. So if I think about leaders, and I would say that for us, that would be pretty true as well. Persistence, take a punch. Those are important things too. Yeah.
Michael Sarraille 1:19:42
You know, we interviewed Tracy Keough, who is the CFO of youlet Packard, she was the one that went out and convince the board to hire Meg Whitman. But we interviewed her for the book because she's a phenomenal business leader, amazing story. And she phrased it she's like I assess, or I think one of the highest attributes of high performers, regardless of age was they had this what she called fire in the belly. And she said they just were always assessing the status quo. Is there a better way to do it? Yeah. And she said they could be 60 years old, 20 years of tenure in HP. And they still outperform the 23 year olds with higher education.
Renée Mauborgne 1:20:16
Well, you know, it's Bruce Springsteen, they say, you gotta be hungry. Hey, baby, I'm starving tonight.
Michael Sarraille 1:20:22
Remember the phrase of when somebody's sort of motto for hiring was getting poor, hungry, and I'm forgetting the third, it'll come to me. So the last one is, you know, one of the things that I'm concerned about, and some people aren't in that's a that's a totally fair response, but your legacy, when all is said and done, let's say 50 years from now, what do you want your legacy to be?
Renée Mauborgne 1:20:51
So, you know, Mike, I don't have that big ambition. I just think I want my legacy to be that, um, my parents thought I was a good daughter. And my, my daughter thought I was a good parent. That was really they're a good sibling, a good friend. You know, a good partner. I think that's, that's what I that's what I want. Yeah.
Michael Sarraille 1:21:15
That is the best answer people give the things that are truly important. Well, Rene, congrats on the book, we'll definitely push this on May 2. For the listeners. Go get it. Go get it. I think it'll reframe for those that are aggressive, which is not a bad quality. It doesn't always have to be an opponent on the other side, you can do it without displacing anything. And let me show you let me say someone, I've worked with companies, they often say, hey, well, you know, this isn't the risk of life and death, like war. And I do appreciate that. And I actually bring it back and said, Have you ever lost your job? That's, for some people, that's life and death, especially if they have to go go home and look at their kids and say, Hey, we're gonna have to cut back or we're gonna have to move or, Hey, I can't I can't put food on the table tonight.
Renée Mauborgne 1:22:02
Well, you know, it's interesting. You say, just the driver that I just had that got me here. He was just talking about, you know, I was having trouble putting food on the table. And then when you strip that of a human being, it you know, it's more painful than we know. And yeah, it's very real. Dignity is, dignity is is a lot. Yeah.
Michael Sarraille 1:22:27
So business is life and death. And I don't think a lot of people, I don't want to add this, this this dark cloud over over what we do. But no, it's important. And the hardest thing I've ever had to do is lay people off. I. I, it kills me. Yeah, it kills me. Yeah, yeah.
Renée Mauborgne 1:22:43
So I hope we can just keep it all life. Yeah, but I know that people are capable of a lot. But Mike, thanks so much for this conversation for having us and Chan and I both deeply. Appreciate that.
Michael Sarraille 1:22:57
Thank you for coming. Thanks. All right, guys. This has been another episode of The Men's Journal everyday warrior podcast. I'm your host, Max. Really. We'll see you again next time. Thanks.
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