The authors touch on the science of flow states, the role of creativity in reaching peak performance, and more.
Men’s Journal’s Everyday Warrior Podcast With Mike Sarraille is a podcast that inspires individuals to live more fulfilling lives by having conversations with disrupters and high performers from all walks of life. In episode 57, he spoke to The New York Times bestselling author Steven Kotler and retired Navy SEAL and author Rich Diviney.
Nominated for two Pulitzer Prizes, Kotler is one of the world's foremost experts on human performance. During this episode, he explores topics such as the science of flow states, the role of creativity in reaching peak performance, and the power of mindset in overcoming age-related challenges.
Listen to the full episode above (scroll down for the transcript) and see more from this series below.
This interview has not been edited for length or clarity.
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Diviney’s career in the military spans more than twenty years and was an officer in charge of training for a specialized command with a precedence on high-stress environments. Since his retirement in early 2017, Diviney has worked as a speaker and leadership consultant.
It's a must-listen for anyone looking to achieve success and continue their journey as an Everyday Warrior.
Michael Sarraille 00:11
And welcome to the Men's Journal everyday where your podcast I'm your host Mike's really I've got a great panel today. First off, we're focused on Steven Kotler if you don't know who Steven Kotler is, again, what the fuck is wrong with you? I'm kidding. Yes. Stephens name has become synonymous with human performance. Over 14 books. In Steven, correct me if I'm wrong here. Over 11 of those books bestsellers are on the New York Times Wall Street Journal bestsellers list, you've sort of developed this this flow state, which a lot of professional sports warriors within their respective professions have been utilizing to utilize peak performance. And I know peak performances is your thing, man, it is a honor to have you on and then there's just rich to Vinnie, who knows Stephen. He's just rich, also author of a book, the attributes, the 25, hidden drivers of optimal performance, who I could say in a lot of ways is a mentee of Stephen, enrich, and I've had a lot of conversations about Stephen in his work, and how we integrate it to into our lives. So Steven, Rich, thank you for joining me today.
Steven Kotler 01:20
It is great to be with you, Mike. Thanks for having me.
Michael Sarraille 01:22
Dude, guys. So I'm excited about this one, I hopefully this is a bit of a wake up call for everyone. Maybe broaching late 30s In beyond that think, you know, with a fixed mindset that they just can't learn a new skill, they can't progress at anything. And the reason I love this book in our country is you're defying all that and let's let's get into it, because you picked up Park skiing as a way to test neuroscience. To wear as you call you say peak performance, aging, and learning a new skill. First off, to pick up Park skiing, you couldn't pick something that maybe is less damaging to the body or has less repercussions.
Steven Kotler 02:08
I know right? You need a lot of motivation to go after one of these kind of harder goals in your later years. And I had I had unfinished business from my childhood with athletes, I had unfinished business with like professional skiers, from my time as a journalist chasing them around mountains. I like I had so much internal drive that but that, in a sense, it made sense that it went into skiing was also the ski mountain has always been my laboratory, but it's a great, um, it was just such a great test, right? I mean, like traditional theories of aging, say that learning how to park ski once you're 3035 is very difficult. 4045 is semi impossible. 50 and beyond you out of your fucking mind, right? You're just crazy. You're not even like there's not even a category Other than Michigan. And but I you know, as you said, I took a bunch of stuff, we're a bunch of whiz bang fields flow science, network neuroscience, bio cognition, a bunch of other stuff. And in the lab, all of this said, Hey, older adults should be able to progress in seemingly impossible activities, even something like Park skiing. So it was a fun, I had a lot of motivation. And I knew I was going to need it. But I also was a phenomenal test for the idea. And I have to tell you, nobody, myself included, thought it was going to work. Like I went in thinking this is crazy. If I can come out the other end, not completely injured, debilitated, having more surgery, like we're going to call that a win. And I figured there was a reason there's a bunch of flow stuff. There's a reason I did it, and everything else around that we can talk about that. But like I said, if it takes five years, like I had a list of like, basically there were 40 items on the checklist 20 that directly related to park skiing, it was zero to intermediate it would take me from novice to intermediate athlete, if it takes five years. That's a frickin win if I'm 60. Great, right? And I got there. In like three and a half months, I was the fastest I've ever learned anything. Forget about learning to park ski in my 50s it was I've never learned anything that fast. It was shocking. And then I saw the results repeated in my ski partner. Then we ran an experiment with 20 Older adults ages like 30 to 6868 year olds using the same formula learning how to park ski and like 14 sessions on the mountain. So the results started to speak for themselves. Which was the other thing I think by the time I realized, well that will say the first time we had a group of like 20 Older adults on it in a terrain park. There was a moment I turned to my ski partner I was like riot was like it was one thing but it was our crazy idea. We were just doing it ourselves. But we're gonna this is crazy. What are we doing this like, we were gonna put somebody in the hospital to kill somebody bam, like what is going on? And it worked. We didn't hurt anybody. Nobody got hurt. They all learned that a parks get totally exploded. Everything they believed was possible in the second half of their life. So yeah, I'll shut up now. Do
Michael Sarraille 05:18
you see what was the motivation? Because it was it personal I mean that someone said, Hey, Steven, you got to slow down. You're not a You're no spring chicken. Like you can't do those type of things. Was there a motivation with this? Yeah, you're wrong.
Steven Kotler 05:35
I mean, the problem with origin stories in reality is there's like 11 places this book came from right there are 11 different avenues. But I'll tell you how it came together for me and when like, sort of like I got punched in the face by Oh shit, I gotta step it up. Me Hi, Chick sent me hi as the Godfather flow psychology. And, you know, his work has been hugely influential in my in my life in my career. He's been very kind to me over the years. And the last time we talked was right before COVID. He died during COVID. He was in his 80s. And it was six months before COVID started. So I think it was over in August or July, he had had a stroke. And I wanted to check on him. And I had this weird question. I've been reading a translated a bunch of interviews out of it. He had done an Italian in English and I'd read them. And he's named dropping hardcore Yosemite rock climbers from the 60s that like only somebody would know if they were really in that world. And like I knew he was he lived in Montana. He hikes I knew he had worked on rock climbing, did a bit of rock climbing, mountaineering, but like he's named Rob people, and I'm like, wait a minute. Like, you have to be a much more serious climber to know these, like, There's no way. So I called him up. And because I wanted to know, I was like, Mike, you talked about your time in a concentration camp is the origin of flow. And then you talked about your early research on artists. Talk to me about the real role action sports play, because there's no way like you're in the valley in the 60s or very close to it. Like let's talk about this. And there's this huge pause on the phone. A minute goes by two minutes go by and I think I've offended. Like, I don't know what I've done. But I think oh my god, I've just pissed off the godfather for his like allergy because like he's not answering and like, about to freak out and liaises with Steven, you gotta be careful. And now I think, Oh, shit. Mike's lost the plot, like he had a stroke damage just like he doesn't. That's what's going on. Oh, crap. This is a totally different conversation than I thought I was going to have. And so I'm like, Well, Michael, what do you mean, I gotta be careful, I'm really nervous to ask the question. He says, Well, you said you do something, your whole life for flow. And then you get to be my age and forget about climbing rocks, or climbing mountains, some days, I can't get out of bed, you need a backup plan, you got to be careful. And what he was telling me was like one flow junkie to another what this was not academics, this is not mentor mentee, this was like one flow junkie to another. He was saying, as you get older, have as many gateways into flow as you possibly can, especially in those activities you love the most. And we know and I can go into all the science flow is foundational for peak performance aging, it does so many things. So we need to maximize our time and flow over time. And so that was the other thing about Park skiing is it sounds crazy, but I was traditionally a big mountain skier. So how did I get into flow, I pushed myself into harder, more challenging environments, and I went really fast. That is not a good backup plan in my age, it may be part of the mix, but it can't be the whole of the mix. And so Park skiing is about the creative interpretation of terrain. Forget the terrain, park it these are just mounds of snow with weird objects on them. You're using your body in new ways. And dynamic ways and dynamic movement is so important for peak performance aging. Again, we've talked about why but creativity is a flow trigger. So risk is a flow target which shows creativity but and by learning how to creatively interpret the mountain. I was giving myself a million more entrances in a flow in my favorite activity in the world. So that was worth the risk to me that was part a big part of my black apply I'm sure there's other things that I'm doing other skills I'm onboarding and things like that, because I heard him but that parks game the first one I just heard it, I was like, you know, I've had a lot of season ending injury, trying to push myself farther and farther into the big mountains. I want the same kind of challenge, but I gotta take it a new direction. That's the best of the origin stories. There's a million other ones I'm having tell them all of you but that's the central one.
Michael Sarraille 09:55
No, no, that's That's great. You know, I knew It's different for everyone. I think really the realization that I hate to use the words I was getting older to I recently had a hip replacement two years ago. Rich, I know you're coming off spine injury. I'd be interested guys, it seems like it's a societal norm or message that hey, you know, again, you can't teach old dogs new tricks. You got to play it safe as you get older. Rich, I know you're you're retired seal just like me. You've taken your licks has that set in for you? In some regards that a certain you can't engage in certain activities, you can't learn new things?
Rich Diviney 10:40
Well, you know, it's, it's interesting it, I think it, it's always it's always eking its way in there because society sometimes wants to tell you that. But one of the things that I love about Steven, I think one of the things that one of the reasons why Steven and I clicked so early and just for your audience, your audience knows that you and I served together, your audience may not know that, that we brought Steve into our command when when I read rise of Superman, Steven came to the command and talked to us and of course, you know, he and I clicked right away. And one of the reasons why he and I clicked was it is that Steven is the ultimate. How shall I put this, he's the ultimate non armchair quarterback. Right? He, when he when he when he writes about stuff, he lives it, he experienced it. He's he embodies it. And so so that's always been an inspiration for certainly me. And I think all of all of those who, who read Stephens work and I, and that's what I kind of think about, I mean, I just it was probably a probably what, three or four weeks ago, I just started learning how to kite surf, I've always wanted to kite surf and and part of that reason was because, you know, of this things that I read in our country and things that Steven has taught me, right, and it's a lot harder than it looks. But so what one of the things I I wanted to kind of talk ask Stephen because I think it'd be interesting for the audience's because I know Stephen, this book was a it's a long time coming. And there's a long process for you. To put this together. It was very personal in the way you wrote it. And so what can you talk to us about that? That maturation because you are absolutely someone who says, You do what you say, and you do what you write. And so could you kind of describe to us what that whole process was of putting this whole project together.
Steven Kotler 12:19
Jesus, I don't even know where to start. Because some of this, I started looking at regenerative medicine and longevity science as a result of my lot, first of all, trying to fix Lyme disease. Right when I was coming out of Lyme disease. I ended up I wrote a very famous article called everything you know about Sympathy for the Devil, why everything you know about steroids is wrong. And steroids were the first anti aging medicine 1990s They're an anti aging medicine. They're also doing AIDS prevention and all kinds of stuff. And then suddenly, they're banned. And all this gets shut down. But like that was anti aging work. It wasn't very good. But it didn't stop me from wildly experimenting myself with steroids and hormones and whatever for years. And walking around going oh, no, this shit isn't ready for primetime. The God the passion, though, you knew this was going someplace because on the inside these the people they were smart and God were they committed and passionate. It was crazy the amount of fire they had for it. So you news going someplace. So I started writing, you know, being friends with Peter Diamandis that gets fed because he's right in the middle of longevity. So all of that. So like, that happens is a 20 year trajectory there. My wife and I build a we run a dog sanctuary, right? We do hospice care and special needs care for old dogs. And we developed a healing protocol. And our dogs are like the worst of the worst, right? You're a one eyed three legged Chihuahua with abusive past cancer, heart disease, flatulence, you're our guy, we love you, right and live out your days with us. And so we have done all this work. And we could add three to five years to a dog's life that was supposed to be dead within a couple of months. And it was wild. And we were doing mostly like low tech interventions is like lifestyle interventions just like the canine version of lifestyle interventions. And I started realizing that what we were doing with the odds mapped onto what people were doing in Blue Zones these longest live communities on Earth and so this was there's a whole lifestyle How does lifestyle choice we're making our lifestyle impact longevity and health there's all that then there's flow science what people don't know if they know anything about flow. Or me hi chick sent me Hi, they know his work on flow. Maybe they know his work on creativity. He spends his almost his entire career on adult development, because flow is the driver of adult development are one of the main drivers. So like how flow helps us grow up and thrive in our later years. This is again 20 years worth of, of stuff that I'm looking at. I'll tell one other just weird story because it's, it's where other things came together. So let's peak performance aging fact old idea about aging, the traditional view, I call it the long slow rock theory, this is our mental that our physical skills decline over time. There's nothing we can do to stop this slide, aka, you're fucked, right? Like that's, that's, that's 40. And most people believe that story on some level or another, there's parts of it that they're holding on to the thing is true, they may not all get parts of it. The new story is that everything we used to think decline of overtime, it stuff does decline over time. But it's all user TO LOSE IT skills. So we never stop training them, we get to hang on to them and even advance them far later in life. Now, some of them are trained in weird ways, not the obvious, right? So that it's complicated there. But like, that's the new sort of theory on all this. How did I when I committed to like research and all that was totally just writing a story about a novel about a cat burglar, and I wanted my cat burglar to have something cool to steal. And I decided rare musical instruments were going to be the thing. And there's like, I could go into the flow reason why I was writing about cat burglar and all the whatever. I was like, Oh, we are musical instruments, cool. Who makes the rarest musical instruments in history. And I started doing research and Stratovarius one dude made more than 50% of the rarest musical instruments in history. So that alone, you're sort of like what? It's like Picasso painting half of the most expensive paintings in history. You're like, What the hell kind of track record like what? And I'm so I'm researching more because now forget about cat burglar. I'm just fascinated by Stratovarius. And how's this happening? I learned that he makes two of his most famous and most expensive musical instruments at the age of 92. And I went, Wait a minute, either. Everything I know about aging is wrong. Because fast twitch muscle response declines over time, fine motor performance declines over time, mental functions, cognitive like everything you would need to make a violin or cello than is like one of the best sounding instruments in the history of the world is first a bit gone. So it was like either he's one and a billion. And whenever I see odds like that, I don't believe that I don't think that's true. Or the story is wrong. So I started looking at the story, piece by piece. What do we actually know about vo two Max overtime? What do we really know about strike? What do we really know about stamina, just regular endurance, etc, etc, etc. And there is not a skill that we know about that isn't user to lose it even Strack the muscle fibers begin to decline in our 30s. And we're going to lose 30% of our muscle fibers by the time we die pretty much. But what happens is the remaining fibers figure out how to do more work. So we can if we train it, right, you can perform as if you've held on to like 7085 90% of the shed and then we get wisdom we get expertise we get get know how that allows us to overcompensate for what we lose. And if we do it right, we could have more wisdom, more expertise more know how. And so we can perform as if we're essentially the same athlete. Right? I was recently talking to a guy, he's a boxer. He's in his 80s. And he says to me, were at the gym. And he's like, Yeah, you know, I just I don't want to get into the ring like I used to everything else is the same. But I don't want to get in there. And I'm like, What do you mean? He's like, Yeah, my powers, powers gone. And I was like, What do you mean, he's like, well used to be able to knock a guy out with one shot. Now it takes four. I don't know if I should be in the rang. And I was like, Eddie's ad for something. I was like, this is this is funny. This is funny, you know? So
Rich Diviney 18:47
it occurs to me, Steve, I'm you're you're literally and I think what what people are realizing when they read this and read your stuff is that you're literally you're putting truth to this idea that we all say is I wish I could I wish I could know what I know and have the body of, of myself at 20 years old. And what you're saying is you can know what you know, and still have the performance out of 20 or 30. You just have to do it the right way.
Steven Kotler 19:09
So let me tell you a different story. This is the story. This is the best story that didn't make it into our country. This is the one that got caught because I couldn't fit in into the structure of the book. But Rebecca Rush is the winningest female endurance athlete in history. They call her the Queen of Pain. She's a Red Bull athlete. She's won seven World Champion mountain bike races. She's won orienteering, adventure racing, she's won like things in things that didn't even know were sports, and she is the world champion. She wins this last year. The idea rod the human powered, I did a rod in Alaska, right one of the toughest endurance races ever. And she does it I want to say she's 54 Maybe 55 Maybe 53. It's one of those three, I'm sorry, I don't have an exact and the press make her Ah, the story, Rebecca Raj wins even by word I did arrive despite being 54. Amazing, right. And if you talk to Rebecca, we have a term for that we call it getting geezer. It's when somebody gets there, I'm too old for this shit juice on you. It's getting easier. We'll talk about how dangerous that actually is to your mental health and your physical well being in a second. But Rebecca was getting geezer all over, it was we were talking about, she said, you know, the weirdest thing about this is, if I tried to do this in a 45 year old athlete, I would have died, it would have absolutely died. This is true. I was not I could not have done it. Until this year, maybe last year, it's the wisdom and all those years of experience that kept me alive. That's why I want that has nothing to do, right. The eighth my age was a feature, not a bug. And everybody called it a bug. That's what I found with Park skiing, though was the other thing that I found is that my age worked as a feature. Once I figured out how to do it right there was we had a very different learning protocol, it was radically different how for me how you'd approach marks being at age 20. So we did a whole bunch of stuff. That said, I think I made all that progress. If for no other reason, because 55 year old or 53 year old, Steven can put down the shame and the self consciousness, you know what I mean? Like when I'm a kid, I'm 1825. And I'm not learning something fast enough. And I'm bad again. And again. And again. I'm not only my bad on the hill, I'm going home, and I'm beating the shit out of myself on the inside. And I'm bad for days. Now I'm just bad on the hill. Right. And so I can recover afterwards. I can use visualization, I can do all kinds of stuff. There's lots of tools, because I'm not being overrun by negative self talk that 1825 or 35 year olds, we were, we were skiing the other day, and somebody made a comment about we're skating really big lines. And the biggest lines I've ever seen in my life, actually, there was a guy who was a lot younger, he's Don't you wish you could do this when you're 18. And there was like four of us that we all started laughing because I would have wiped the mat with 18 year old Steven, like I like he wouldn't have a chance against me at 55. And everybody in the group. And this was from like, 35, up to 55, everybody felt the same. So wisdom really, really, really matters. And performance expertise really, really matters in performance. And we don't if we train properly, you can hang on to so much more. And as Richard and I were talking, the other stuff is the other side of it, the medicine medical side of it, if it goes wrong, it's getting so good regenitive medicine has gone from totally a joke in like 2000 with steroids that could sort of work and sort of didn't they didn't do what anybody thought they were gonna do and blah, blah, blah to like where we are today with exosomes, central matrix and PRP and all that amazing tools. So like, the one thing that is still true is older athletes take longer to heal, right. And until we have like, that's a stem cell problem. And I will say that, like I think the technology that like start turning that clock back, is within the next five years, we're gonna start to see the beginning of it, for sure. Because it's it's out of the lab, it's in different versions of it already in trials moving forward. And there's a lot of versions. So just by the sheer numbers on where we are and the timetable and other things on the clock. It seems like that's where we're going to be within five years, but even for right now, you know, plus, as you learn, you know what, the thing that nobody, we're not as fragile as we think we are. We're just not as fragile as we think that we are.
Michael Sarraille 23:50
So you talked about getting geezer I mean, I'm rich, I'm sure your kids do it. They're like, Oh, you're so old, and like, I don't feel old. I'm 45. You know, we just went and broke for a world record skydiving. But yeah, okay, I guess I'm old and it's relative to you. But I love this neuroscience. Paired with later in life learning and you talk about these superpowers of aging. You named a few creativity, intelligence, abstract reasoning, empathy, wisdom. Could you just touch on those in maybe reframe how people get in their 40s 50s 60s? So this is thinking in a fixed a fixed mindset way of yeah, that may be true. I just I can't tap into it.
Steven Kotler 24:35
So let me let me start with mindset because we keep circling around and then I'll go to the superpowers. But both are super important. I just want to touch on mindset and getting geezer because people, even your kids, they don't sort of get what they're doing a positive mindset towards ageing, meaning I'm thrilled about the second half of my life. I think my best days are ahead of me. I'm excited about the possibilities and second of my life, it translates to an extra seven and a half have years of healthy longevity. And this is one of the most well, this 50 years of science that shows this this isn't one study. The first major study was the Ohio longitudinal study on aging and retirement. And Becca, leave it Yeah, went back and analyze the data for mindset and its impact. And this was a 20 year study. And she realized, oh, shit, it's seven and a half extra years out the longevity. But here's the Wilder one. And there's this has been done again. And again, if you are geezer, if you are aging is the most widely acceptable stereotype in the world. Right? You I could walk outside with any other prejudice right now today and get canceled, I air in public and I get cancelled, I can look at rich and be like, Dude, you're too old for this shit, a national TV and everybody laughs It's a punch line. Right? But people who are exposed to negative stereotypes around aging and believe them by the time they get to 60 30% greater memory decline than people who were not exposed to negative stereotypes on aging. There is a when you get into peak performance, aging, the the tightness of the mind body connection is stunning. Shocking, almost. And so one of the my mini campaign in around our countries just to like warn people, he'd be really careful how you talk around older people and what you're saying, because you're actually impacting their health, their longevity, their memory, their quality of life in really significant ways. And you're lying. The when the voice in your head says you're too old for this shit, the voice is lying. That's what all the data shows.
Michael Sarraille 26:39
That is, that's funny. Just personal story. Guys. I say the words old man, I actually use it in a positive connotation, a way of respect, but I, when my dad calls I say, Hey, what's up old man? My mom texts me on the side. And she says, Hey, stop calling her dad that it really, it really, he just doesn't like it. So it's interesting that you say that I mean, 7.5 years from a positive mindset alone. That's
Steven Kotler 27:02
That's crazy, right? It's, that's crazy. By the way, let me put it in context with you. That is if you are morbidly obese, not just obese, morbidly obese, and I'm using it as a medical term, right? It is better for you, if you want to thrive the second half of your life, it's better to change your mindset than it is to lose weight. A healthy mindset toward aging will get you more health and longevity than losing that weight. That's how crazy we're talking about. Now, let me ask you the second half of your question. Here's the other here's the other thing. There are a lot of reasons old dogs can learn new tricks. But it turns out old dogs are actually better at learning certain kinds of tricks. Why is that? The reason is, as we enter our late 40s and early 50s, if we get it right, and we can talk about what do I mean by getting it right in a second. But if we get it right, first of all, there's certain genes that only activate with experience. So they start to come on Second of all, the two halves of our brain, which essentially are in opposition to each other, most of our days, they start to work together, it gets it starts in our 50s, it peaks in our 80s. So this is it's really cool. And then in our 50s, the brain starts to recruit underutilized regions, it goes oh rich, you never learn how to play the cello. So we've got a little bit of real estate over here. So let's build in some redundancy. Let's colonize that let's use that. These three these things, these changes, unlock what one of my heroes Jean Cohn and did a lot of this research called developmental intelligence. This is you sort of one you get multi perspectival thinking, I can see around a problem. I'm no longer the only guy who's right in the room, I can see other people's perspective, you get big picture thinking, and you lose your fondness for relativistic that he is no longer black and white, everything's Gray, we all know that in the in adult reality, and you start to be able to see all the shades of gray downstream from these core developmental intelligence skills that you can unlock in your 50s you get huge levels of intelligence, abstract raising, problem solving, you get creativity, including divergent thinking, which is the hardest to train. You also get us enormous levels of empathy, and enormous wisdom. And don't let me talk to you later asked me about the importance of wisdom and expertise for preserving cognitive function. But for now, let me just talk about the I want to make a business case because it's weird, but I want to say this out loud. I spend a lot of time and have spent a lot of time over the years talking to CEOs. And because I do my work in forms always about training or hiring right. How do we screen for the employees we want to how do we train up the employees we want? That's the conversation I'm sure Rich is having the same conversation right and left when he meets with CEOs. So the things I hear because I'm always like, Well, what do you want? Right? Like, what are you training? What do you need an employee, I hear the same qualities over and over. They want intelligent, creative employees, because they need to be innovative. The rate of change in the world is blitzkrieg, they got to keep pace to, they need empathetic wise employees, they don't use those terms, but they say we need psychological safety. We need great team performance and collaboration cooperate. Well, what's the foundation of collaboration, cooperation, great team performance, everything. So psychological safety as well, empathy and wisdom. These are the foundational traits. So a well trained over 50 year old because they're not a gimme, you've got to do certain things to get here. But a well, this is the dream workforce, the 21st century, this is a Business Revolution. The very people we're weeding out of companies, right, are the absolute people, we need to run our companies. In fact, the point I always make when I talk about this with CEOs is look, if there's a module for 21st century businesses, Jeff Bezos is customer centric thinking that's the mantra everybody believes that you don't have empathetic wise employees, nobody can think like your customers forget about it dandy. So everything we really want in a workforce today is can be found with by hiring the very people we're trying to get out of our companies. So I think that we get these new superheroes was one of the reasons I knew I could learn to park skate, right? big picture thinking, create new levels of creativity, like I know, that sounds kind of strange and soft, perhaps. But like, I was one of the reasons I was like, Okay, I'm creatively learning to interpret drain features. And my creativity is peaking. And here's the cool thing. When I say if properly trained, there are moderators. So don't do not give me so you got to do certain things to get these skills. And there's, there's a string of them, you have to solve the crisis of identity by age 30, you have to know who you are in the world, actually, but 40, it's match fit. So you have to have a tight link between what you do for a living or with bulk of your time and who you are your strengths, your values, you have to work in such a way that you're getting access to passion, purpose, and flow, right, all those things matter by 40. By 50, you got to forgive those who have done your harm, and you got to forgive yourself, because sit down your shame. Otherwise, the empathy, the wisdom, the multi perspectival thinking all at a neurobiological level, you can't unlock it, then to actually unlock the skills, creativity matters. So being engaged in creative activities, whatever that is, is how what unlocks developmental intelligence is the gateway drug and developmental intelligence. And then once you get those skills, you have to train against physical fragility. Because what good is if you've got a great mind, but you can't use your body as falling apart, you're screwed. So you have to train your body and specific ways. And then you have to train down risk aversion, because it increases over time. And the fear that you get with risk aversion, blocks, learning blocks, creativity, blocks, empathy, blocks, wisdom, you're basically screwed, it makes you a bitter, bitter old man or woman. Right? So that's the sort of that's the formula for unlocking those superpowers. And it helps to start young, though interventions, we know this from the data interventions at any age, even in your like, late 80s 90s. It matters, you can you can really move the needle.
Rich Diviney 33:30
Hey, Steven, quick question, you know, in terms of the the person who's listening who, who's, who's maybe in their 50s, or entering in their 50s, and they're right at the beginning, they haven't done anything, you know, anything, you know, really extreme or, or sexified, or whatever that is right. And they want to start, they want to start they want to start point. And we talked about empathy, we talked about wisdom, what are the what are the kind of the three or four things they can do to get started
Steven Kotler 34:01
loving? Levy. So I always say, if you're going to start one place, start with mindset. Yeah. That's not the answer. I'm going to give you here, we could talk about what it takes to change your mindset around aging. But I'm going to give you the answer you were looking for. But that's the place I start. Yeah, peak performance aging in a single formula in a single sentence. We can decode the pieces and what I'm actually talking about, but single sentences this, you want to rock to you drop, you got to regularly engage in challenging Creative Social activities that demand dynamic, deliberate play, and take place in novel outdoor environments. Its peak performance aging and a single sentence. And notice also before we break that down, what did I not talk about? Didn't talk about health, nutrition, supplements, biohacking, you know regenerative all these things that people think about? When you look at the biggest levers, that's those are all the big As levers combined into one thing, Park skiing, by the way, was a single activity that hit all of them. That's why part skiing is so good. Because there's a lot to do. If you go one at a time, let me give you an example. I said you need dynamic deliberate play, right? regular access to dynamic is code. It means any visit is dynamic is strength, stamina, agility, balance, and flexibility in a single activity. Those are the five categories of physical fitness that we have to train over time. And the World Health Organization has very specific guidelines for peak performance aging, it's 150 to 300 minutes of aerobic activity moderate to vigorous a week, it is two strength training days a week, minimum and three balance, flexibility, agility days a week. So if you're doing the math at home, and you're serious about your training, that's a couple hours of training five days a week, that's a lot of frickin training right now, or you find a single activity, I chose Park skin, but like you can get great results from tennis, by the way, tennis so much better than like jogging for a lot of these reasons. That'll hit many of them. Dynamic activities matter also, because when we're coordinating balance and agility with strength and stamina at the same time. Among the things that does is it amplifies neurogenesis, the birth of new neurons, and angiogenesis, the birth of new blood vessels vasculature that supports those neurons, you want to stave off cognitive decline, you want new neurons, you want them to you want synaptic plasticity, right? New neural networks, new neurons, forming new neural networks. That's how you protect the brain. That's how you train the brain. expertise really matters. Wisdom really matters. But we can get more of it. If we if we're trying to learn things that require dynamic motion, because for whatever reason, it amplifies these things. So there's a lot to do, or you find a single skill Park skiing, that allows you to do a bunch of this I always we looked for multi tool solutions in the flourishes collective, a single tool that sells multiple problems at once. Because every train is busy. I am way too frickin busy to sell problems one at a time. And everybody I know is way too busy to solve problems one at a time, or ineffectively, right, like you want to work smart, and you want to work hard.
Michael Sarraille 37:24
I'd be interested to ask it. So is there an argument to be made based off the superpowers of aging, that the path to mastery beyond your 50s is more efficient by nature of the as we say, the physical rot, what you can do with Puck skiing, especially in your 20s is you have the luxury of iterations that your body can sustain 53, you knew you couldn't sustain that? So you had to find smarter, more efficient ways to pick up the skills at a quicker rate?
Steven Kotler 37:58
I think so it's interesting. I agree with everything you're saying. But there's a caveat in my head that I'm going to that I want to address which is so if you want to stave off call your dying Alzheimer's dementia, I mentioned expertise and wisdom are are your tools. Now the reason they matter, most decline takes place in the prefrontal cortex, part of the brain that's right here. It's the newest part of the brain from an evolutionary perspective. So it's the most vulnerable, and its expertise and wisdom live there. And there are these giant diffuse networks and the brain loves redundancy. It never wants to figure out one way to do something he wants 11 different ways to do something the same thing. So Alzheimer's, dementia, these tend to target individual spots. But if you get expertise and wisdom, you've got lots of backup. All the researchers who did this work Yakov stern at Columbia, Alcon on Goldberg at NYU excetera. That all said the same thing. Start young, start layering in skills in your 20s as much as you can, and never stop. This is why you hear lifelong learning that formula gave you novel outdoor level, all that is is a formula for learning. Right? These is this is an approach to it's part of an approach to learning meant to maximize learning for people who are imitating.
Michael Sarraille 39:23
Let's rich, let's talk a little about what's as Steven about the myths, I love these myths that you sort of address in the book, I just want to you know, what are what are probably the top three myths with regards to aging that that people most commonly have and you talked about, it's solely a physical process that can stop your physical decline.
Steven Kotler 39:42
The first I think that's the first one and we've been hinted at it a lot. That aging is just a physical process. It's not right aging is as much a mental processes as a physical process in the evidence. I mean, on mindset and you know, on and on and on. You know, I'll give you a flow based one that is that is wild and weird people don't realize this. So when we feel really positive emotions, and love, love as an example, but in flow, you get both you get a lot of ecstasy and joy and happiness and all that stuff. But you also get a sense of control the feeling that you draw things you can't normally control and you get mastery, right? You you learn and flow because you're using the skills to the utmost. Mastering control are two of our favorite feelings like that extreme hat, because that means safety, more safety and security got more mastery, you got more control, you're safer in the world, survival feels really good. When we are exposed to really positive emotions, they amplify the production of T cells. These are the cells that fight diseases and natural killer cells, never killers target tumors and other sick cells. So this the psychological, psychological benefits of time in flow work as anti aging medicines as well. So it's and this is just, I can go everywhere, like the examples are everywhere you turn again and again. So yeah, that's, that's a that's definitely. That's definitely a myth.
Michael Sarraille 41:15
That so one of the things I loved about the book is you talked about seeing more of the hill. And that being part of the superpower of as you approach Park skiing, you saw more of the terrain, you saw more of the hill, can you can you go into that? Just a little bit? Yeah.
Steven Kotler 41:28
I mean, race, this comes from our friend Andrew Everman. So I had been by ski partner Ryan, Wix is a little faster than me. And it pisses me off. Same body type, same training level, but like, yes, he's 20 years younger than you. But that doesn't count, of course. And he's a former professional athlete. And but that doesn't count. He's just faster than me, and I'm pissed. So I've asked him about it, you know, where's your speed come from? And he says to me one day, I don't know. But I think the only thing I'm doing really different consciousness, I'm trying to see as far down the hill as possible. light bulb went off my brain because Andrew Newman had done a bunch of research on how, when we look out of the corner of our eyes, peripheral vision, the brain basically goes, Oh, look, all is chill, you just check it out the scenery, right? Because fight or flight is I'm focused on the threat right in front of me, it's really laser tight. So the opposite triggers a parasympathetic response and calms us down. And when I heard Ryan talk about seeing more of the hill, and I dove into it, I was like, This sounds like peripheral vision. He's looking at the ultra peripheral vision. And I was like, I wonder if that's part of the secret. So I tested it, I found a ridiculously icy stretch of the mountain that to kind of pulls your focus right to your feet. And I said, Okay, I'm going to go into this, and I'm going to try to see, and it was a curved halfpipe. And if you could see the whole thing, you can successfully ride the outsides, but if you focus, you just end up right in the center. And I was like, and it was, it was Cheetos. And so I knew, like, either it was gonna work and slow things down for me, and I was gonna be able to maneuver in this environment, or I was gonna crash. And that would be one way or another, I was gonna get my answer. And so I just tested it, and it worked ridiculously well. And so you know, peak performance ageing, peak performance, in general is both, you know, really well, you got to learn to manage your nervous system, right? So, on a daily basis, that means gratitude lists, that means mindfulness, that means regular access to exercise to keep your levels low, and stress levels low. And, you know, little focus. You also need tools in the moment when like things are redlined, right? Because and it's a hold. I'm not in a crisis situation. I'm not pulling out my gratitude list. It's not the tool, I'm reaching for a first tool I'm going to reach for with my breath. If that doesn't work, peripheral vision, if that, right, I've got backups to my backups for my backups, because usually, it's, you know, my not in the same way that this situation is you guys were putting yourself into, but it's at least my ass on the line. Right, I get it wrong and go into the hospital. And that, you know, it's impetus to get it right. It's
Michael Sarraille 44:25
rich, I may disagree with him on there, just from one aspect of how comfortable you've gotten those environments, to where it possibly lowered your performance because you were not as hyper vigilant. And I'm talking about combat, Richard. Well, there's any truth to that?
Rich Diviney 44:41
Well, no. So So I think there's I think, I think I think both. I think both aspects are true, because I truly believe that this idea of stepping out, stepping back allows you to perform faster and better and even in combat. I mean, certainly, you know, in combat, you have folks who are who have to be focus down the site to engage the enemy. But if you don't have others, typically he was us because we the officers, right? If you don't have others who are actually getting a big picture and understanding the movements of everything, you will not, you will not engage in that group flow, which is really what what, you know, one, two and stealing fire. Right. But you know, it's interesting, Steven, you said that because one of the things I talked to Andrew about in terms of just how does this show up and every day we were chatting about this. And this is kind of an example anybody can use, you can actually test this theory quite easily. If you find yourself driving in traffic that's moving right. So not not necessarily stop and go traffic. But say you're on the highway. And it's a, it's a fairly crowded roadway. And the traffic's moving at, say 3030 or 40, or maybe 50 miles per hour. If you if you focus on just the car in front of you, you will have a an enormous ly uncomfortable drive, because you will be you'll be stopped, you'll be hitting that gas and brake constantly, because you'll be in a very focused reactive state that is not conducive to what's going on. If you open your gaze, however, and you start taking in the big picture, and start noticing everything about the cars around you in all lanes, you will in fact find yourself driving a lot more smoothly. In that type of environment. This is exactly what you're talking about on the Hill is exactly what happens in combat when done the right way. You open up your gaze, you engage that parasympathetic but you're also you're also your reaction time goes goes up because you're you're able to engage your entire the entirety of your of your vision versus just the single point of focus. So So yeah, I think it's it's it happens in combat as well if done correctly.
Michael Sarraille 46:43
Let me ask you guys this day because you both bring neuroscience in Steven in a lot of ways you've you've brought neuroscience, I know it's been around but to the forefront as part of obtaining peak performance. And I know a lot of us sort of rely on let's let's call them time tested fundamental principles that are just handrails. You can talk about attributes, you can talk about leadership principles, with the introduction, or when you include neuroscience within the study of performance. Do you see an overall higher rate of return on the increase in performance? Versus just simply instructing people on? Let me let me find a good example on on, you know, how to run 100 meter dash faster, but if you include the neuroscience, what's going on with the brain? In relation to?
Steven Kotler 47:36
Yeah, so two? I've got two answers to that. The first is why neuroscience like what the hell right? Like, why get whiz bang just for the sake of whiz bang. And the reason is, people have been going at performance through psychology for a really long time. And the problem is, psychology is, is pretty squishy. And it's um what ends up happening is the psychological level, what works for you is probably not going to work for me. And what works for me is probably not going to work for you because of the psychological level, individual differences. What's your risk tolerance is? Are you an introvert, are you an extrovert, all these things, all the attributes that Richard wrote about right? These things are going to impact how I want to train you how you can learn how you can all that stuff, you get to the level of neurobiology, if you're daring to do what we do at the flow research collective, which is we work with people in 130 countries, and wildly diverse groups of people. So I need something that's going to work globally, in everyone in any situation doesn't matter. That's neurobiology. It's shared by everybody. It's shaped by evolution. So when you train from the level of neurobiology, what you get is reliable and repeatable. The reason I feel it's important and why my books have emphasized, not just neurobiology, but I've really tried to train people in language of neuroscience and the nuance of neuroscience and everything else. We are big believers to flourish collective. And I am personally a big believer in my life, I think Rich would agree with me on this in cognitive literacy, if you want to achieve peak performance, know what's going on in your brain in your body when you're performing at your best. Because if you don't, right and the way, unfortunately, or fortunately, every subject, I don't care if you're an auto mechanic has a technical language, right? And the language is technical, because it's precise. There's precision, there's information in that language. That's, you know, homeo sapiens is a much more precise term than humans. Right? Like it just is like you learn five different things in the term Omeo Sapiens, you learn one thing and the term humans, there's a reason we use those terms. And when you start to understand, like, it's not just the fancy words, a fancy word that actually can if you understand And and how it works, you're sort of going to this is the toolbox for better performance. So I think there's a lot to be gained from learning to speak, you know, a little more understanding of neurobiology and physiology and these sorts of things. Because I just think it makes us better. It's, you know, teaching somebody how to fish rather than giving them fish is my opinion, right? I'm teach.
Michael Sarraille 50:27
So it's, I would say, the way you just explained that also probably leads to or maybe I'm asking, if you understand the neuroscience, specific to you, it allows for more effective self reflection, and how to improve performance within whatever realm. Because if you're understanding the mind brain flow, you know, sort of dynamic, you can break down your performance a lot better than you can verse neurobiology, which is, as you said, you know, cross cross the globe, repeatable, sustainable.
Steven Kotler 51:04
Yeah, and, you know, the here if there's any proof anywhere. So if you go into the ethics of AI Godfather flow, teamed up with a really remarkable researcher, Susan Jackson, they wrote a book called flow and sports about it, this is in the 90s, right, where they're trying to, like, take the psychology of flow, and train up performance and get something reliable and repeatable and whatever. And like, they were great in the book, because they're totally honest, because sometimes it works. And most of the times of disaster they can't get any kinds of results are not stable, it's fixable. We measure everything in the collective with 10s of 1000s of people every month, we see a 70 80% increase in flow using the exact same scale that Susan and me I developed together, right? We're using their skid, same measurement tools, and we're getting a reliable 70% increase in flow consistently and people why cuz we're training from the neurobiology. Right. And it's hard to train from the psychology. It doesn't things don't make, I mean, I can run through the long list of flow triggers, right. And from a psychological perspective, they don't make any frickin sense. Like what is risk, novelty, complexity, unpredictability, pattern recognition, creativity, and like five other things like deep embodiment, what do they have in common? at a psychological level? Absolutely nothing. And if I tell you, those are all flow triggers, like well, what the fuck like, what I don't even work with that those terms don't even seem related to one another. And then if I stop, and I say, Yeah, but every one of those things produces dopamine in the brain that drives focus in the present moment and the drive through the flow, suddenly you go, Oh, shit, okay. And then I can say, okay, and you know, the experience you have, when you're in a novel environment as a tourist and how good it feels inside, you know, the experience you have when you get a crossword puzzle, right? And get an answer that first one's novelty, the second one's pattern recognition, but the feelings the same. And you can run the experiment and you can go, oh, this is dopamine. This does this does this, I know it. Right. And you know, you can take it a step further, you start to learn things like, oh, norepinephrine is the principal ingredient in anxiety and it can exist in the brain. If there's acetylcholine in the brain, and they counterbalance each other. Right. And suddenly, you're like, okay, cool. Now I have these actual neurobiological tools to fight my anxiety, it's a lot less wishy washy. I'm like, This is what's happening. This is and the funny thing about the brain is it sounds really complex, super complicated, but it's very mechanistic. Right? I mean, like when we talked about receptors docking with neuro chemicals, you literally got like a geometric shape of a neurochemical. It's a little blob and you got a receptor. That's a circular thing. And if the blob fits in the circle, great, you've got activation, if it does square doesn't fit. You. I mean, it's that mechanistic, right? It's lock and key stuff. So it's not it's not people love to make things harder than they seem harder than and they that it's endlessly complicated. But there's no like, everybody can understand it. You write the terminologies endlessly complicated, the rabbit hole goes as deep as you want to go. But like at a practical, I just want to be dangerous level. Now, you can get there pretty damn fast. And you're much more effective. I think, rich, you.
Rich Diviney 54:31
Yeah, and I want to just I want to harken back to something you and I talked about one of the first times in fact, it was probably the first time we actually met and we were having a beer and we were waiting for you, for you to go to the airport and catch your plane. We're having a beer and we were talking about this. And one of the things you told me which really had an impact on me was this idea that you know, we are feelings, all the stuff we feel and kind of into it or whatever come from our limbic brain, right and our logical thinking comes from our frontal lobe and our languaging comes from our frontal lobe and I I think one of the things I remember you're telling him I'm gonna misquoted here, but I'll just paraphrase here was that when you put when you wrap neuroscience, when you start explaining this stuff with neuroscience, you're literally allowing for these things that you couldn't explain to put language and explanation into. So you're, you're actually giving access now to your frontal lobe, which is where you can start wrapping skills and logic and other things around it. So so by by putting these neuroscientific explanations and, and wrapping these stuff in, you're taking these quote, feelings. I wonder why I feel this, I wonder how I can do this. And you're saying, Okay, this is why and you're, you're opening the gate to your frontal lobes, your logical mind, your skill acquisition, and really just allowing those floodgates to open. So that's, that's one of the ways I remember you kind of explained it to me, and certainly it took that lesson and grateful for it. It's also
Steven Kotler 55:49
like little things like, intrusive thoughts, when your thoughts are spiraling, that's always too much norepinephrine, right? That's always too much norepinephrine. And so if you know that, and you know that too much norepinephrine blocks, fast twitch muscle response and blocks full power, right, you can't access. So now I'm trying to figure out, is it a go no, go situation? Well, I'm feeling nervous, or my thoughts spiraling. Because if there's spiraling, that's too much norepinephrine. If they're not, right, I can work with it. And like, once you start to figure those things out, you get really precise information that I think, you know, allows you to, you know, thrive and otherwise terrifying situations, which is always the most fun. Yeah. That's, that's, that's, that's that when everybody else is running away, and you're, this is how you play. That's really cool. Well, I will say
Rich Diviney 56:45
this, and I know we're running out of time. My so I'll just, I'll make one last comment and hand it over to Mike. But But I, my last comment is this Steven is someone who is he is a mentor, he has been a mentor for me for years. So So I've always enjoyed and appreciate his friendship, but but go get this book in our country, because because it is it will change your life. And it doesn't matter if you're 50, I'll be 50 This year, I this would have helped me when I was 30. So so no matter where you are get this because much like all of Stephens work, it is just absolutely remarkable. I just want to express my gratitude. Thanks to you for all the stuff you continually put out in the world. Because it just, it's just awesome. I really is.
Steven Kotler 57:27
Thank you Rich, that's very, very kindly,
Michael Sarraille 57:29
I would actually make an argument that if you're in your late teens, 20s 30s, you should be picking this book up to get ahead of the power curve, in a lot of ways is don't yeah.
Steven Kotler 57:41
I gotta go that only peak performance aging starts young. It's wild. There's psychological stuff. I'll give you one example. So one of the most famous studies on aging is the Sisters of Notre Dom, this basically National Association of nuns, right. They've all agreed to yearly cognitive tests. And they all donate their brains to science afterwards. And there were a lot of commonalities among the history. And one of the things that they was when they were studying them, they wanted to know what are the factors that can lead to thrive in our later years and what leads to cognitive decline, right, and that sort of thing. And everybody who joined the sisterhood in the average age was like, 22, that you write an autobiographical essay, just five paragraphs about this is where I came from, this is what I'm looking forward. So 50 years later, they went back and they analyzed these initial essays for linguistic complexity, and attitude. And they found that optimism and linguistic density at age 22 was a predictor of mental health, and longevity. 60 years later, the people who were optimistic in their 20s and had already signs of like Lifelong Learning expertise, linguistic density, lived on average, 10 years longer than the nuns who did. And this is this is levels of optimism and 20 impacting longevity 60 7080 It's crazy, how tight the connection is now long it lasts.
Michael Sarraille 59:19
That I gotta say, that's not surprising. I mean, that's, that is an awesome study, but not surprising in the in the slightest. I've got to say this. So, you know, rich, and I come from a community where we put a precedence on on creating leaders, usually through coaching and mentoring, and you guys are living example of Richard Kaji, one of his mentors, which has led to him, you know, creating a career outside of the SEAL teams within human performance. And it always leads to an unbroken chain of of excellence. You know, Rich, I don't know if I told you this. General McChrystal, and Steven, I don't know if you're familiar with General McChrystal wrote the book Team of Teams. He was the JSOC manna, gave a book called once an eagle to Chris Fussel, who's a colleague of rich and eyes, he was one of my commanding officers, who then gave that to me. And it's very similar in my eyes to that story, the impact you've had on each other's lives. And now the fact that you guys are impacting the millions, through your work, just, I just want to say that that's not lost on me. And hopefully, it's not lost on the, the listeners. So Steven, we end this in certain way, Rich has already been in the hot seat, we usually ask him, and I'm gonna make a deviation here rich for Steven, and you answer which question you want, we usually asked all our guests, we've had the Bernie Marcus's, Sammy Hagar was great. What are your that is if you were passing to me, as a mentor, what are your key your three keys to success in life, but if you want to take that towards human performance, and say, of all these books, of all the research I've done, here are the top three to five things I've identified about human performance, serve the floors, yours.
Steven Kotler 1:01:07
So I hate to just start with the obvious, but if if you don't have a good understanding of flow, what it is, where it comes from this is flow is the how humans perform at their best, right, we're all welcome with it built in. And it's the formula for peak performance. Obviously, there's more going on than just flow, but it's literally at the center. So you know, just general level if you don't have an understanding of flow, how it works, where it comes from, how to get more of it, how to really utilize it, how to turn micro flow into macro flow, all the things, all the details, I don't think there's any place you you can you can go, I have an understanding of flow, I think really matters. The second one is actually in our country. And it's always keep your word, especially to yourself. So if I put something on a goal list, it's a promise to myself, I've if I say it out loud, and call it a goal, it's a promise to myself, and I will die before I break that promise. And the reason is this. If you get in the habit of not completing your goals, breaking your word yourself, you're a homeostatic organism your brain wants to embody wants to save energy at every level. So that if I start not keeping my if there's things that go on my to do list, and I don't do them every day, my brain as soon as something goes on the list, it starts looking for excuses ways out, if you never break your word to yourself, brain does the exact opposite of the calf to do this fucking thing. So how do we do it, and it starts puzzle solving and problem solving. So I don't say it out loud. Unless I'm going to do it. I don't call it a goal unless I'm gonna do it. And I try to keep my goals to myself also, until they're accomplished, there's a lot of there's a lot of evidence that there's a lot of people who think talking about their goals out loud is the best way to achieve them. And it's actually demotivating it works the other way. So that one I think is that's the second one. And then the third one is peak performance, a checklist, certain number of things you do every day, right that what matters is that you do them every day. What matters is just the consistency. So I think like understanding what flow is, right is where you want to start and how to use it. Always keeping your word to yourself would be my second one. And then what the fuck did I say? What was my third one?
Michael Sarraille 1:03:44
The pharmacist checklist consistency
Steven Kotler 1:03:46
Oh, and bigger and peak performance is a checklist. And it's it's just the repetition I have read all this stuff works like compound interest, and the really cool stuff. The really cool stuff. I mean, you'll get benefits very like if you you know you can train people for when you could work with rich you could work with me or that you're gonna get benefits in two weeks in a month, like whatever but the really cool stuff the magic, that's like a year two, three years, you know what I mean? That's when it starts to really show up. And you have to sort of know that's coming. But what matters is a checklist. That's what you're doing today. That's what you're doing tomorrow that's what you're doing the day after and it's nothing fancy here. So I don't know those are I don't know if those are the big three but those are what we got today.
Michael Sarraille 1:04:36
I would say those three are pretty big CAMI Hagar Sammy Hagar was I can remember one that that is stuck with me and interesting because I never really gotten to Eddie Van Halen in the relationship there but he said don't ever fuck anyone. There's no reason to and basically we're saying is you know, as you just said, keep your word yourself keep your word. And if you can't think I'm very clean, very forward with your with the people. in your lives and say, Hey, I'm falling through on this one for this reason, but he said, Do your best never to fuck anyone else. And that one stuck with me. But I'll tell you what you talk about in our country, that guy looks good for his age. And he is still as you said, rock until you drop. The fact that he's performing. Great, great individual. And I was actually shocked by his mindset. Actually, I shouldn't be but but great life story as well. Steven, we asked one more question. And, you know, I call this the legacy of leadership. Rich calls it the irony. But we do talk about legacy quite a bit. When all is said and done. And it comes your time. And I can tell if your mindset, you're probably going to live to 103. And you got 50 more years ahead of you. What do you want to be remembered for? With all your work? What's the impact you wish or want to have on the people?
Steven Kotler 1:05:50
That's such a weird ask question. I like, honestly, to be not my department. Yeah, it's my like, you know what I like? It's, that's really like, what is my I, I'm here to do the work doing the work, what it means in the end, and like, I don't know, and I'm like,
Michael Sarraille 1:06:12
I don't, it's not guiding.
Steven Kotler 1:06:15
You know what I mean? Like, I literally like, I don't go near that one. It's also like, I don't go near the, if you could tell your 19 year old self, like, I don't go near that one, either. Because like, I love who I am. And I if I told my 19 year old self something, I could change something in the timeline. So I'm not, I got no advice for that. That guy, like, I'm good at that. And as far as the legacy goes, it's somebody else's concerned, I would like, I would hope that I can do enough in my life that I might have a legacy. I'm not quite sure I'm there yet. That's a big word to me. Legacy that carries a lot of weight. I don't I don't know if I've, I don't know if I've done enough quite yet. And it definitely did not to be able to speak to it.
Michael Sarraille 1:07:04
That's probably that's probably the most I can
Steven Kotler 1:07:06
make the world a better place for animals. They're young, good. I'd like to make the world a better place for animals. Like that's it. That's a cause that I'm very passionate about. But legacy is somebody else's problem, man.
Michael Sarraille 1:07:21
I love it. That's probably the most honest answer we've gotten. And I will push back on you on one thing, you've you've secured a legacy. Yeah, you know, and as you said, that's for other people to decide. But with all the work that you've done, you've you've definitely security latency and impacted a lot of lives. So, Steven, for the listeners, and of course, we'll drop the links everywhere. Where do you want to direct them? Not only for, you know, in our country, but for the flow state? Collective? Yeah, so
Steven Kotler 1:07:53
one, nar country.com G M AR is how you spell in our country.com. The reason you want to go to go to the website if you want one, we're giving away a ton of free bonuses if you if you order order books through there like $1,700 and free Peak Performance Training stuff. I mean, it's really it's a crazy, and I worked really hard because you people do me a favor when they preorder books or you know what I mean? Like so I we work, we kicked ass on that. But the other thing, the reason I'm sending people there is we talked about the peak performance aging experiment, like there's videos like we had a National Geographic cameraman following us around is how we assess performance improvements is one of the ways we had to film everything. And so we've made really, there's fun videos, and you can see for yourself, you don't have take my word for it. In our country, flow research Collective is us, if you're interested in training with us go to get more flow.com, which is the cheesiest URL in the world, but nobody ever forgets it. So go to get more flow.com You can sign up for a free hour long coaching call with somebody on my team. And they'll tell you about our programs and what we do. But mostly, they'll just like, listen to where you're at and see where we can help kind of thing. And most people love that call. And it better not be a hard sell marketing thing, or somebody should tell me because I'll fire the person on the other end. So it should be really mellow. I'm not throwing you a hard sell marketing Fidel, hopefully. And Steven kotler.com is me. So between those three URLs, there's everything and if you want to anything that we talked about all those sites, tons of free videos, podcasts, whatever, there's all kinds of free information if you want it.
Michael Sarraille 1:09:32
Well Stephen, I can't thank you enough. Good to finally meet you again. Rich has always talked about you. I've heard more about dynamic subordination than I think from anyone you know, rich so in rich thanks for joining us as well brother and we'll have you on again, especially the the Friday live sessions and all the listeners, go check out the sites pick up the book, again. I think it's going to reframe how you view getting older and it's going to keep you in the game for me personally it did and it was a little Have a bit of an awakening or I should say a big awakening I guess this has been the Men's Journal everyday warrior podcast with Max really appreciate it and we'll see you next time
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